Akame ga Kiru

We don't know? Lubbock just mentioned it in the latest chapter.

Hmmm... oh, I forget; did Lubbock escape, or...?

He killed Shura, but at the end of the chapter he still is in the dungeons.

Sorry to bring it back up, but 441 and 442 just kind of left me staring confusedly at my computer screen, so I really want some clarification. "A good person who does horrible things"? I mean, as a society, we've basically agreed that good people are people who do good things, right? Or at least intend to. You can be factually wrong about what those good things are, or you can be mistaken on how to accomplish them, but intent to do good is pretty much the agreed-on measure of a person's goodness. Furthermore, goodness is, societally, generally defined in terms of other people. That's agreed on, right?

We agree on these things, right, Serocco, KSPAM? I'm not interested in hearing your arguments for applying any of this to Esdese so much as hearing that point (please just explain this part, I don't want to do this all over), because I have the impression we're working off of extremely different definitions. That makes it kind of hard to actually communicate, and this will probably come up again, especially since Esdese is probably going to be prominent next time Tatsumi shows up.

A soldier is a man who kills people, which is bad. However, he also does it to protect and serve his country, which is good. He also has a wife and kids, and people who love him who he loves back.

As a soldier, he does bad things for a living, but that doesn't make him a bad person. He's a good person who does bad things.

Calling her good person is stretching by any definition. Esdeath lack very concept of morality. There is no evil and good in her dictionary. I would even say for her torturing hundreds innocent people and providing for families of fallen is completely same.

I'm gonna go below the belt here. Robert McNamara was a good man who committed war crimes. Harry Truman was a good man who committed war crimes. FDR was a good man who committed war crimes. Ronald Reagan was a good man who committed war crimes.

If you don't want Real Life analogues, then I'll use examples from this very series. Night Raid is filled with good people who do some pretty awful things. Bols was a good man who committed crimes against humanity as well.

That's why I said Esdeath follows that same scenario. They aren't simply one or the other; they're both. Does nothing to justify or excuse their crimes, but it's not like every person who commits war crimes is a Card-Carrying Villain. You can be every bit as much of a villain as a hero depending on the scenario, and a recurring theme of AGK is that many characters aren't that bad outside of combat.

On the other hand, Esdeath is very much amoral. She doesn't really care about morality or ethics and simply does what she wants. It just so happens that not everything she does is bad. Syura is, in a way, a darker, more destructive example of that.

edited 2nd Sep '14 11:45:29 AM by Serocco

Esdeath Enjoy killing people, torture them and waging war. If she didn't have war to fight in she would create one.

Soldiers fight because orders, statesmen for sake of people. She is sadistic warmonger. You can give her credit for her honor and for her compassion for her comrades,but she ulintimately do what she want instead of doing what's her duty.

Ignoring these aspects is disrespectful to her character.

edited 2nd Sep '14 1:02:35 PM by Tenzen12

caveman speak no helpful for constructive argument

I wanted to stay out of this but...

"A good person who does horrible things", really? You know, just because someone has nice smile and is friendly and polite doesn't make them a good person. She might be Affably Evil but at the end of the day she's still evil.

"A good person who does horrible things" would imply that she has good intentions but just so happen to do bad things because she has no other choice. That's not Esdese. Like, at all. She revels in human suffering and feels has no empathy for her victims. She does what she does because she loves it.

"A good person who does horrible things" would be someone like Wave who is just too ignorant to realize he's working for a throughly corrupt system, or Kurome who was brainwashed since childhood to believe that what she does is right and be loyal to Empire.

Good god, the mental gymnastic necessary to see Esdese as basically good person who just so happens to engage in genocide and torture for fun must be beyond Olympic level.

Neither does being a dick.

edited 2nd Sep '14 1:19:59 PM by Shlugo_the_great

Oh hi there kettle, name's pot, have we met?

Also, you seem to be misunderstanding the fundamental argument here. Esdese isn't good or bad, she's neither, because those concepts don't apply to someone like her. Or at the very least, they're inadequate for judging her. No one's denying the things she's done. What we're denying is the notion that they automatically render her beyond redemption or reform despite there being much bigger Heel Face Turns in fiction that are widely celebrated (coughVegetacough)

edited 2nd Sep '14 1:29:12 PM by KSPAM

And ignoring her positive traits is just as disrespectful to her character. People aren't wholly black or white. Granted, I don't think Love Redeems at all in this scenario.

Wait, genocide? When was it said that she commits genocide? She annihilates everyone who opposes her; I highly doubt she'd limit her kills based on race.

edited 2nd Sep '14 1:57:24 PM by Serocco

More or less how I feel. Esdeath isn't that bad outside of combat, which is a rarity for her character type. In the end, she's amoral, but affable.

Although saying she's genocidal is a bit cartoony. That'd imply she limits her targets based on race. She never limits herself.

edited 2nd Sep '14 2:08:22 PM by Sledgesaul

Did I ever denied or ignored her good points? But having good points doesn't make her good. Considering her character best you can get is Orange And Blue Morality (that's where I stand) or attempt go with some kind if Yin Jang-esque duality.

Examples you noted were people committing Necessary Evil for sake of country and people. And I am pretty sure they didn't enjoy it with slasher smile on their face...

edited 2nd Sep '14 9:51:52 PM by Tenzen12

I just picked up this series...I'm really not sure what to think of Esdeath. It's certainly an interesting combination of character traits the author has come up with...and I think it'll be interesting to see in mind what developments he has in store for her.

I do like that the series has sane and pleasant people on both sides of the conflict (Bols will be missed) along with characters on all parts of the crazy spectrum.

Syura's apparent death came quite abruptly, almost too out of the blue for someone with a leading-antagonist role. Which makes me worry if he's Not Quite Dead, but good riddance if he is.

And wow, I did not expect Mine to be the one to pair up with Tatsumi. (Also, what happened to Akame...isn't she supposed to be the title character?)

edited 3rd Sep '14 12:16:24 AM by ashnazg

I'll be consistent: she's fairly pleasant outside of combat. She's not entirely good, nor is she entirely evil; at the most, you could call her amoral, and in desperate need of a defeat. It makes me wonder what she'd be like if she wasn't as overtly sadistic. Then again, she wouldn't be Esdeath if she wasn't a sadist.

Jesus, if Syura ends up surviving, and somehow gets his hands on Lubbock again...

edited 3rd Sep '14 12:28:18 AM by Serocco

I can't really argue against that as long as it's worded that way.

... Actually maybe with exception of "needing to be defeated" part. I think depending her nature she can do pick any way without needing change herself.

I wouldn't particularly mind if he survived or got revived. There is still few characters left that didn't pawned/humiliated him yet

edited 3rd Sep '14 2:04:24 AM by Tenzen12

I kinda agree with that, Syura's death was a bit too simple plot-wise. If he's still alive Lubbock is in a lot of trouble though.

I'm glad that at least the most repulsive members of Wild Hunt were the first to die (though I'm still not sure about Dorothea. Well, that and the fact that Cosmina might be coming back, or Coming Back Wrong).

Edit: Now that I've mentioned it, maybe that's precisely how Syura will come back - his body is essentially intact, so Cosmina's revival could be foreshadowing for his.

I wonder how Esdeath will respond to the news that Tatsumi has fallen for someone else, though it probably won't be good for Mine. Maybe it'll end up leading to whatever fate that religious group leader foresaw for them some time back.

Oh yeah, and honestly I'm quite surprised Syura hasn't taken any actions against his father. He totally seems like the usurper type, but it turns out instead he seems to genuinely respect and like his father...apart from that one dying thought he had about wanting to seize power, at least.

edited 3rd Sep '14 5:44:58 AM by ashnazg

I doubt Tatsumi will ever say who he's going out with. He knows Esdeath is lethal and he wouldn't sell Mine away like that.

What fate did that religious leader foresee fir Night Raid?

edited 3rd Sep '14 10:30:47 AM by Sledgesaul

Honestly, I don't think it really matters. Esdeath doesn't seem like the type to show mercy anyway.

It would be kinda funny if it worked to to be an advantage. I.e. Esdeath orders that Mine be kept around to be tortured, giving them a chance to rescue her rather than just killing her.

Or Esdeath will demand to know who it is so she could have a one-on-one fight for Tatsumi's heart.

It wasn't Night Raid in general but rather Mine/Tatsumi specifically. Just stereotypical ominous words of ominousness about their fate, something about hoping the fate he foresees for them doesn't come to pass.

/*crosses fingers*

Really hard to keep up in this thread given I refuse to read the manga.

I hope their fate doesn't happen either. I really would not like seeing Night Raid exterminated like that.

At least, unless most of the Jaegers and Wild Hunt also followed suit, ala Kill Em All.