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Dirty Coward vs Combat Pragmatist / Know When To Fold Em

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Lunacorva Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#1: Oct 15th 2012 at 2:05:37 AM

Okay so there's a scene in a book I'm planning where The Hero has activated his Super Mode and the villain, being rather Genre Savvy, realises that The Hero is far too powerful to be defeated in direct combat and that retreat is the best option, to this end, he manipulates The Hero, pointing out that the time spent fighting him could better be spent helping his friends from the villains mooks.

Thing is, I don't want the villain to come across as a Dirty Coward in this scene, since I want to give him some Villainous Virtues to contrast with his utter sociopathy. So what to you makes the difference? When is a villain being a coward, and when is he simply being Genre Savyy?

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#2: Oct 15th 2012 at 2:19:50 AM

The primary difference is one in attitude. The Dirty Coward doesn't want to fight the hero because he's afraid of him, whereas the Genre Savvy villain doesn't want to fight because he knows he will lose (he's probably afraid as well, of course, but the difference is that it's not the reason for why he does what he does).

Basically, give the latter impression and not the former, and you shouldn't have any problems.

Dealan Since: Feb, 2010
#3: Oct 15th 2012 at 3:15:59 AM

Just have the villain remain calm while he is trying to get away instead of getting into panic mode and shitting himself. Cowards panic and stop thinking rationally, pragmatists decide the best thing to do is run.

Wolf1066 Crazy Kiwi from New Zealand (Veteran) Relationship Status: Dancing with myself
Crazy Kiwi
#4: Oct 15th 2012 at 4:25:31 AM

If he has an escape plan set up in advance for that sort of contingency, it'll look more Genre Savvy than just legging it when it looks too tough. He'd have to put the plan into action calmly and then be shown to use the respite he's bought himself intelligently to regroup or put something in motion to deal with this new level of threat - as per above, no blind panic/pants-shitting.

You needn't even show him setting up the plan in advance if it looks like something that would have needed prior planning - even if it's as simple as a code word to his mooks to get them to behave in a certain way to cover his strategic retreat.

Lunacorva Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#5: Oct 15th 2012 at 5:52:38 AM

Well the thing is, the Hero's power up DOES catch the villain off guard, and he DOES have an Oh, Crap! moment when The Hero tanks his strongest blast. (Considering that there was no plausible way for the villain to know of the Super Mode, having him predict that would push him into Mary Tzu territory.)

So basically I want to have him be utterly shaken by the power of The Hero, (This will serve as stress relief for the audience, considering that for the previous chapter the villain has been doing nothing but calmly delivering No Holds Barred Beatdowns and Breaking Speeches to all the main characters. So having show a moment of genuine fear will both be cathartic for the audience, as well as keeping him out of Villain Sue territory.

BUT...

He quickly recovers and fights back, but soon realises he's completely out-gunned and tries to Xanatos Speed Chess his way out of a tough situation.

Now, how do I do all that, and not make him look like a Dirty Coward?

edited 15th Oct '12 5:58:49 AM by Lunacorva

Dealan Since: Feb, 2010
#6: Oct 15th 2012 at 10:25:00 AM

He quickly recovers and fights back, but soon realises he's completely out-gunned and tries to Xanatos Speed Chess his way out of a tough situation.

That should be enough, actually. You seem to be afraid that just having him "lose" and escape is enough for the audience to think he's a coward, but going by your summary I don't see that at all. He fights, it goes horribly bad, he escapes. Nothing dirty or cowardly here.

Kesteven Since: Jan, 2001
#7: Oct 15th 2012 at 10:49:00 AM

I agree. Like others have said, a coward runs because their fear has overridden their reason. All you need to do is show that he's got a good reason to run and he's acting on it with reasoned intent.

Surprise invincible super mode is a pretty damn good reason, and xanatos speed chess is a good way to show he's still got it together, so you may have answered your own question. The fighting back first thing is good too because it shows he's not just thrown off by the unexpected turn of events, but that he's prepared to make a go of adapting to the new situation before calling it quits.

edited 15th Oct '12 10:52:43 AM by Kesteven

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JHM Apparition in the Woods from Niemandswasser Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
Apparition in the Woods
#8: Oct 15th 2012 at 10:51:28 AM

Exactly what Dealan said. Failure coupled with survival is not the same as simply running for it, especially, if they try to spin the losing situation to as much of their advantage as possible as they manoeuvre their way out alive. To the contrary, if done well, this could make your antagonist look downright brilliant, particularly if he plays things in such a way to make the protagonist think that he saw it all coming.

edited 15th Oct '12 10:52:26 AM by JHM

I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.
Wolf1066 Crazy Kiwi from New Zealand (Veteran) Relationship Status: Dancing with myself
Crazy Kiwi
#9: Oct 15th 2012 at 12:14:00 PM

Sounds like you're very much in the villain's head - showing his OH CRAP moment etc.

That gives you the ability to show exactly why he's gapping it and that it's not an irrational choice but a strategic move based on genre-savviness and being genuinely caught off guard.

I personally don't think, from what you've said, that there's any danger of him coming across as a Dirty Coward.

Lunacorva Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#10: Oct 15th 2012 at 2:43:06 PM

Thanks for the help everyone.

To be honest, I myself didn't see my villain as a Dirty Coward until I saw this entry on the Dirty Coward page:

  • Kai Leng of Mass Effect 3 is a particularly unlikable case. He's not above playing dirty tricks on his enemies, and pulls several on Shepard, including calling in a gunship to provide fire support while his shields recharge.

Now to me, this seemed more like practicality than cowardice to me, but everyone else say it as cowardice. I decided I needed to reevalute what it is that makes a coward.

Wolf1066 Crazy Kiwi from New Zealand (Veteran) Relationship Status: Dancing with myself
Crazy Kiwi
#11: Oct 15th 2012 at 3:23:29 PM

I suppose it depends on how the tactics are applied, to whom and how often.

If the villain calls in an airstrike on a kindergarten every other day, that's pretty cowardly. If he calls in an airstrike on a military base when needed, that's pragmatic.

Going toe to toe against the protagonist then gapping it when OMFG, the protagonist unexpectedly levelled-up! is someone who's not afraid to take the lead but shows sense when outgunned.

You mentioned him putting the beat-down on people, just as long as you don't make those beat-downs too OTT - i.e. use just enough resources to get the job done, not throw everything you have at them - he shouldn't seem too cowardly.

If he's constantly deploying everything he's got at far weaker opponents and doing it from some inaccessible fortress, he'd probably start looking rather cowardly.

Lunacorva Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#12: Oct 15th 2012 at 3:33:23 PM

Well there's little danger of that, since he enjoys torturing and toying with his Opponents, so he's not going to use any more of his power than he has to in order to ensure the fight lasts longer.

Wolf1066 Crazy Kiwi from New Zealand (Veteran) Relationship Status: Dancing with myself
Crazy Kiwi
#13: Oct 15th 2012 at 3:41:24 PM

I somewhat suspected that was the case - I got the distinct impression of a truly pragmatic hands-on kinda guy - so I doubt you've got anything to worry about.

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