Basic Conspiring, Plotting, Scheming, Lying Bastards/Bitches.

I like to think that most people are honest, straightforward, good natured souls who do not feel the need to constantly lie, cheat, steal, conspire or otherwise intentionally harm others from the shadows so to speak.

However, when writing villains (or just master manipulators) who do all that and more, I am at a loss.

What seperates a good plot from a pathetic one? What are the elements of a great scam? Is there a formula or archtype for cruel cunning?

Examples from Spy Masters trying to frame enemy nations to Teenage Girls launching gossip attacks at each other welcom.

Incomplete and distorted truths are typically better than outright lies, but among outright lies, there are times a grandiose one will trump a small one. Also, statements (whether they are lies, half-truths, or genuine truths is irrelevant) that agree with and confirm the listener's beliefs will more easily be accepted than statements that challenge the listener's beliefs. So as tempting as it may be to break a hero with a world-shattering deception, telling hem exactly what they want to hear in exactly the way you want them to hear it is usually more effective.

edited 25th Aug '12 7:21:52 AM by KillerClowns

I'm not quite sure I follow that.

Villain: "You are going to win! I am going to lose. Justice will be served!"

You're oversimplifying. This is harder for a known villain, yes though not impossible. But a Manipulative Bastard pretending to be a neutral character or ally to the hero would do better confirming the hero's prejudices and suspicions than planting new ones — the hero is more likely to be convinced his mortally-neutral rival is a villain who must be killed than that his best friend must be slain for the greater good, so if the end goal is "trick the hero into killing," say to frame it as cold-blooded murder or to get him to break one of his own vows, the former would be more effective.

EDIT: Although now I think about it, a villain could "accidentally" admit that Good Hurts Evil when it does not, and trick the hero into trying to exploit this false weakness, only revealing the deception when the hero is at his most vulnerable. This claim would agree with and confirm an idealistic hero's belief that Good is greater than Evil, and so be more likely to be taken as truth.

edited 25th Aug '12 7:49:59 AM by KillerClowns

If I was capable of complex plotting, I wouldn't need advice.

Well, it may have to do with your naive world view.

You simply do not get the real world. You live in a little ideal crawl space, safe from the cruelties of the world at large.

You claim that most humans are good natured people who don't do those things, well, how well do you know those people? Do you know their inner most darkness? Well, not even that really! Most people have swarming issues beneath the surface, just waiting to burst out and show you how little you know. "Most people"? Does it comfort you to think of the unquestionably "dark" individuals out there as some kinda minority? That somehow all the evil in the world can be done by a small minority? That everything really is as simple as people who believe themselves good and evil...?

That is why you cannot write a character like that.

What seperates a good plot from a pathetic one? What are the elements of a great scam? Is there a formula or archtype for cruel cunning?

A plot is the resolution of a conflict, solving a problem. As long as the events depicted are believable, there is no such thing as a "pathetic" plot.

A scam is motivated by need or greed. The scammer pretends to have something the target thinks he wants. The scammer convinces the target to pay for something valueless. Example: a scamming car salesman convinces you to buy a crappy car by dressing it up nice and persuading you that it is the best thing ever and you need it.

As for cruel cunning, well, I have only this to say: cunning is the ability to make and execute plans; cruelty is disregard for the feelings of others.

I hope all that helps you.

I figure if humans couldn't at least cooperate in the name of benevolence or self interest, there wouldn't be billions of us. Malevolent intent/actions tends to be hard on others.

Thanks.

There must be some key, some formula. A common thread that makes it easier to see/write out.

Heroic epics, Romances, even the dying Cowboy Western has a formula. What's the formula for these Bastard/Bitch plays?

& I've been reading Bruce Schneier's Liars and Outliers lately, which actually covers the topic as part of its study on security and trust in human society. Though a gross oversimplification — I am no Schneier — it can essentially be said that most of the time, people operate according to social mores. (Whether those social mores are "good" or "evil" is irrelevant, as are any unfulfilled desires they have. Most people lack the courage or intelligence to act counter to society, whether for malevolent gain or for a righteous cause, in any large fashion. That might actually be helpful to remember when writing a manipulator.) Properly understood, the Tragedy of the Commons should provide insight as to why minimizing defection from social mores is an advantageous evolutionary strategy for a social species.

A truly great manipulator inspires awe in the audience by defying expected formulas. As such, attempting to apply a formula to such an individual is fundamentally absurd.

edited 26th Aug '12 5:12:29 AM by KillerClowns

Yes, self interest, but not good self interest, really...but for benevolence...well, maybe some of the more idealistic sorts, but out there, more people "band together", so as to be able to fight, to get rid of their enemies and be safe from "evil", and in doing so, do some of the same things unto the "evil people" that was done unto them. And then those "evil" people will do the same to their former "victims".

As for the reason there are billions of us, there is no way to know now what was the reason for keeping people alive - to be good, malleable and ready soldiers, or for genuine benevolence. Well, we do know what the past generally was almost to a T - violent, crude, and brutal. Malevolent actions are hard on others, yes, but how many of those people will move out due to malevolent actions? Not many, realistically.

So, tl;dr, your mostly misinformed assumption of consistent, constant benevolence undermines your ability to understand or write anything relying on subtlety or with held truths.

edited 26th Aug '12 5:43:56 AM by NickTheSwing

Nick The Swing, please stop insulting people because they disagree with your view of human nature.

Well, I've written a Chessmaster/Magnificent Bastard type villainess for a collaborative story once.

I tried to capture the idea by making her seem smart. Making her seem like she knew what was going to happen.

Xanathos Gambits. Playing one person against another. Using people planted spies to spread misinformation, that sort of thing.

Assume they know a great deal about the world and, most importantly, the hero(es).

"Now, you wouldn't want to harm me... Imagine what would happen if no one was here to call off the hit-squads?"

edited 26th Aug '12 2:46:20 PM by Matues

The best scams are the ones that no one ever realizes were executed. They share this with most other crimes.

Alright, alright, sorry. I get out of hand way too easily. Kinda depressing.

Its difficult for me to understand these kinds of social and respect driven mores, doubly sorry.

edited 26th Aug '12 10:38:50 PM by NickTheSwing

Like everything else in life, it comes with practice. Start small and simple before trying to map out complex, multi-layered cons; be it over the course of different works or just hypothetical situations that you don't fully write out or incorporate into your works. And when I say map out, I mean just that - mind maps are useful here.

Also, one method I find helpful is to work backwards. Think of a mistake your hero commits - or one s/he almost commits. Then, think of the hows and whys that led to that mistake. What circumstances caused the hero to think that was the right course of action? Did someone say something that misled the hero? Once you have all these factors in place, figure out which ones you can attribute to the schemer and work from there.

If the schemer's objectives are tangential to the hero as opposed to outright antagonistic, another technique is to develop and write the role of an ally. Then, look at all the ally's contributions and effect on the hero and bring them together to weave an ulterior motive that is the true purpose of this false ally.

Any scheme can ultimately be boiled down to three quesstions:

1. What do I want? — A scheme usually has some sort of goal or desired end state in mind.
2. What do I have? — This goes beyond physical possessions and includes such things as skills, personal ties, and information. The schemer asks himself questions like "Who do I know? What skills does he know what these people have? What do I know about their needs, fears, etc.? What do I know about my goal? Is it something that's heavily guarded, or secret? What will I need in order to get close to it?", and many other facts along the same vein.
3. How can I use what I have to get what I want? — This is, essentially, The Plan. The schemer breaks takes his highest goal, then figures out what kinds of secondary goals he or she needs to fulfill in order to reach that goal and how he or she can accomplish these by leveraging the resources under Question 2. (The schemer may need to break down these secondary goals even further ad infinitum, but the basic principle remains the same: Apply what you have to get what you need.)

A few other things to keep in mind:

• Above all, a good plan is generally simple. Having a convoluted plot for the sake of having a convoluted plot can trip up both the plotter and (beyond the fourth wall) the author. This isn't to say that there can't be contingencies; in fact, I'm getting to that...
• A good plan is adaptable. Circumstances change, and sometimes the info the schemer thought he or she had turns out to be wrong. A temporary setback, however, is not the same thing as a defeat.
• A good schemer knows how to manipulate others to their advantage. Put simply, as others in the thread have noted, the key often lies in convincing people how doing what you want them to do also works out to their advantage — and here is where knowing how to tell those half-truths and big lies comes in.
• Don't let your schemer get too attached to his or her pawns. Once their role in the scheme is through, they can be marginalized — although trying to directly harm them tends to backfire more often than not.

As for how the hero ultimately manages to triumph despite the schemer's worst intentions: No one is perfect, and no one has perfect knowledge of the situation. Let the schemer break the rules I just mentioned at least once, and then let the hero take advantage of that in his plan.

A brief aside: The essence of a good lie is the justification made by the liar to themselves. The more "right" the lie feels to say, the better it can be sold. This is why white lies are so easy to tell: The justification is immediately self-evident. This does not mean that the justification need be moral—"what's good for me is the greatest good" is an uncomfortably common sentiment—but it does mean that it needs to feel appropriate to the liar.

Of course, being a full-fledged pseudologue, trained confidence man or hardcore sociopath makes this kind of justification much simpler, but it still needs to be there. People don't lie for nothing.

In a play I wrote a while back, a scheming noble type character got his way through a combination of controlling facts and perception through lies and emotional manipulation.

For example, he lied to a duchess saying the prince she had betrothed her daughter to was a womanizer, then convinced the man the duchess would go to for confirmation that he could help the prince by preempting whatever the duchess asks with a story about how the prince treated dogs. What the grounds keeper thought was a glowing recomendation (the prince took in strays) the duchess mistook for womanizing.

He later goaded his rival the king into letting their sons duel (a bad move since his own son was the a better duelist than the prince) by noting that the prince could never achieve anything on his own without daddy's help.

edited 1st Sep '12 5:19:53 PM by Earnest

I too believe most people would act good at least if raised in the right environment, but I don't have a problem writing villainous characters. The fact is that a lot of people don't have the good fortune of being raised in the right environments, so there's no shortage of evil behavior in the real world to inspire me. Hell, even people who see themselves as doing the right thing often mistreat those whom they view as somehow outside their moral boundaries.

maybe this would help, in the latest chapter of one of my book i have a Manipulative monster but is eventually caught on it. This is how I did it.

keep in mind the Oni's entire thing is all Blatent Lies just so he can fuck with a victims head and then ruin their life to feed off the Dispair Event Horizon, so for him being a manipulative bastand is basicly serving as going to the burger shack for a meal

Sukio stops, catching her breath under a tree, and taking a seat as she looks around, eventually slipping on the mask and returning to Chaki, leaning back and letting out a relived sigh.

“Quite the secret you have there.”

Chaki tensed, summoning his sword as the Oni poked out from around the tree, arms up in a defenseless motion.

“Whoa! Whoa there, I'm not here to fight. I'm here to make a deal.”

Chaki growled, and tightened the grip on his sword, “I don't make deals with devils.”

“I'm not a devil, I'm a genie, I can grant you anything your heart desires...at a price.”

Chaki relaxed his stance a touch, looking the Oni over conspiratorially, “What are you getting at.”

“What do you want?” the Oni asked coyly, circling Chaki appraisingly, “Riches? Fame? No not for a brave and noble samurai such as yourself. Power perhaps? Power enough to show up your companions? Your a tough one to read.”

Chaki relaxed his grip again and let his blade fall to his side and vanish. 'I could fix Ryo, Dad, myself, we would be real men again.' his mind wandered thinking back to the cured levied on the 3 of them. 'Or I could restore my magical powers, fight as Kandy Kat again, the girls would love that especially after...' his thoughts soured at the memory of Dark Sakura, the Maiden of Justice who had fallen and been consumed by evil. Then his mind drifted elsewhere...

The Oni smiled, “There is something, no somethings that you desire.”

Chaki nodded, “Can you heal someone really sick,” his mind drifting to Kotoha's sister in the hospital, who due to all the recent activity had left him without any chi to spare to use Bear's heaping power on her. As he had promised Kotoha to do.”

The Oni nodded, “Is there anything else?”

Chaki sat back down, looking up to the sky with a sigh, “There is so much that needs doing,” now talking more to vent then out of serious interest.” Ryo and dad shouldn't suffer for Aiko's machinations. I wish there was a way to make them men again, for real,” his hand moved up pulling the mask free, “instead of behind some mask, some disguise.”

The Oni nodded, smiling wider and wider, 'Jackpot! This one is full of impossible desires, when I'm done he alone will swell the rivers a dozen feet!'

Sukio sighs, “I wish there was a way to restore Ariel and Sylvia to life, and restore my powers as Kandy Kat, they are collapsing in on themselves. They deserve better.”

Her gaze drifted to the glass of a storefront in the distance where a orange tabby appeared in the reflection for just a moment, anger lancing through Sukio's form, “And I wish that furverted cat would stop stalking me!”

The Oni knelt by Sukio with a smile, “When you dream big you go all out,” his voice like sugar, “and I can make all your dreams come true.” Sukio's face lighting up as he twisted the knife, “But it will require a great cost.” The Oni reached for and took Sukio's mask, “This will serve as a down payment. The rest will come in time.”

Sukio was under the Oni's spell now, “W-what do you want.”

“I think first...a promise. For all you are asking you must never again become a man.”

Sukio sunk into despair but nodded, for all the good that was to be done giving up her personal desire was a fair enough price.

“Second,” The Oni purred, “I think I will need a commitment from you, you shall become both my bride and protector, not everyone is as level headed as you my dear and will seek my head.”

“It's a deal,” Sukio felt her life slipping more and more out of her control, but it would all be worth it.

“And finally,” the Oni purred, “You shall join me in the Sanzu, become mother to a new race of Oni. Do all of these things for me and your wishes will be granted.”

Sukio hung her head, she had once escaped the fate of a mother and concubine by the actions of her friends in the Maidens of Justice it seemed only fair to take up that mantle again to save them in return.

“As you wish, b-beloved.”

The Oni smiled, slipping into the cracks of the tree and vanishing, “I will be back with your wedding band to seal the deal.”

Sukio waited, her head low.