Black Panther

Oh, absolutely not. He fucks up that country in the short time he's king, and is singlehandedly responsible for Wakanda's first (albeit a rather short and relatively bloodless) civil war. He's a bad guy, through and through. But the fact that he treats Wakanda so callously during his tenure makes sense for his character. It never really meant anything to him beyond being a step in his plan to conquer the world. There's a big difference between saying something makes sense from a character's perspective and saying it's actually the right thing to do. Honestly, that's kind of an odd conclusion for you to have jumped to.

edited 16th Feb '18 12:23:14 PM by Gault

I absolutely thought that T’Challa, Nakia, W’Kabi, Okoye, M’Baku, and Killmonger provided a good spectrum of ideologies. It was well balanced and thoughtful, IMO.

Now that I’ve said that- OH MY GOD THIS MOVIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I misunderstood your meaning. My apologies.

Wakanda does definitely have it's own spectrum of opinions. Everyone's actions and motivations make sense for who they are, and Wakanda has traditions and opinions towards the outside world that fits their technological supremacy and centuries of isolationism. No immigrants fucking up our country, etc. Wakanda's even still a legit monarchy with ritual combat as it's form of succession.

Watched it on opening night! The theatre wasn't even completely full (though it was close).

The Good: Wakanda was stunning; all the visual design elements were fantastic. The Busan sequence was like an African-style Bond movie, and great fun. N'djaka was an well-drawn villain. After a half-dozen or more movies with serious villains versis wisecracking, casual heroes, it was amusing to see the opposite.

• T'Challa: *dramatic entrance*
• N'djaka/Killmonger: 'Sup?

More seriously, what particularly struck me was that, for all his legitimate criticisms of Wakanda, he acted very much as a colonizer towards it. He took the mask at the museum heist without knowing anything about it or its cultural significance, just because it looked cool. He took the throne of Wakanda without knowing much about its values and traditions, resulting in him casually violating them (for example, by killing one of the Dora Milaje). He deliberately destroyed their cultural heritage to make it harder for them to remove him (burning the heart-shaped herb). Even the fact that he gained power through ritual combat is consistent with this: colonial powers were adept in using local customs when convenient and discarding them when inconvenient. (And the ritual was not quite rightly done, either, as he gave the other tribes no opportunity to challenge him, which was a central part of the tradition.) And, more obviously, he sought to gain control of Wakanda's resources for his own ends.

All of the above doesn't make his black nationalism/pan-Africanism uncompelling, it just adds context and dimensions to it. There are also other interesting elements to his character that I can't quite find words for, about how diaspora can view their counties differently and maybe more simplistically than the people who actually live there. Killmonger identifies his loyalties with "black people" and expects Wakanda to do so as well, but Wakandans' loyalties are to Wakanda specifically. I ferl like I need to read some reviews from black people to get a clearer sense of this element.

I'm still trying to decide whether his last words were incredibly epic, or a little overwrought. His death scene was a strong emotional moment, either way. And I felt like it suited T'Challa's arc; he'd been trying to avoid killing his foes for the whole movie, and in the end he had to. Which suits the overall story of him learning to be a ruler, and the difficulty of a good man being a ruler. While I often like superheroes who win't kill (provided they show strong ethics in other regards as well), it was never a realistic possibility for the ruler of a powerful nation.

Shuri was great fun. Martin Freeman getting shut down and rendered speechless all the time was fun.

Also, I liked that neither Nakia nor M'Baku became villains. Nakia was arguably the most heroic character in the film (and I loved her) and M'Baku, while briefly an antagonist, was never villainous. A nice change from The Doctor Strange movie derailing Mordo at the end with no build-up just because that's what happens in the comics.

The Not-So-Good: The plot, in and of itself, was not particularly creative and had no major surprises. There was a little two much repetition two ritual combats and three heart-shaped-herb sequences got a little monotonous, though N'djaka's conversation with his father was a nice moment.. It also might have been better if they'd skipped the flasback to 1992, as it didn't show us anything except things we learned later in the movie anyway.

Also, the 3D detracted from it greatly: for at least the first 20-30 minutes, the combination of 3D, lighting, and fast camera shifts made everything feel blurry, and I didn't feel I could see the action well.

On the whole, it was one of the better Marvel movies, though it doesn't displace Winter Soldier as my favourite. I'd put it on a par with Avengers (my third-favourite) and a little behind Civil War.

edited 16th Feb '18 3:17:38 PM by Galadriel

Guess I'll be seeing this today. Friend was kind of an idiot who didn't think he needed to buy tickets ahead of time for a Thursday night preview showing. In other news, Armond White strikes again! Were his reviews always this long?

edited 16th Feb '18 3:09:43 PM by NogaiKhan

Setting aside the rest of the review, the criticism of Stan and Jack is super random.

Now that’s just hilariously wrong. It’s like claiming ghost peppers are bland.

edited 16th Feb '18 3:35:25 PM by wisewillow

I say the visuals are on James Cameron's Avatar quality. But what sets them apart from Avatar is the surprisingly heavy use of practical effects in junction with the CGI, the sets filmed along with the on-site locations. Oh, and that last post-credit scene, man.... hoo boy, I can't wait to see how it's explained.

Really, the only downside I had was how they used the song "Pray for Me." I was, with the intensity of the chorus and the instruments, expecting it to be used for a high-energy action scene, a "getting back into business" type of montage, or the end credits, not as dulled-down background filler during a casino scene.

Otherwise, I ducking loved it.

Just got back, man I loved this shit.

Fucking awesome movie.

Was there a second stinger? I had to leave the theater after the first one cause I couldn't stand the annoying ass kids behind me.

It involved Bucky Barnes being fully cured of his brainwashing in Wakanda.

Fuck.

Goddamn disrespectful brats.

I liked the movie a lot. My only real complaint is that all it had in the way of really memorable action was the car chase in Busan.

Yeah, the actions became a lot less impressive after that. Still great, but not as great.

Man, I found that scene's music to be just absolutely perfect.

The score throughout the film was perfect. Really evocative. The sunset at the end made me cry.

edited 16th Feb '18 6:05:28 PM by wisewillow

One of my favorite moments was when Killmonger revealed who he was in front of the royal court.

The build-up, the pay-off, & music of that scene was perfect.

The only thing the soundtrack missed was this:

But the Internet has it covered:

Movie was great. I can see why Killmonger was getting some praise.he also has some nice theme music.

Loved it. Probably my favorite origin movie since Iron Man. Also I did not expect to love M'Baku so much.

Just got back.

Very pleasantly surprised. It feels like a film that could've been completely disastrous in the hands of a less competent director. But it ended up being a lot more intelligent than I would've expected from the premise and pre-release materials.

In particular, my fear that the film would project an American viewpoint of "everyone of a certain phenotype views themselves as the same people" onto East Africans to which such a POV would be entirely alien, all for the purpose of stroking an American ethnic group's ego, turned out to be unfounded. Wakanda had multiple ethnic groups with their own differences, and Kilmonger is the only character to express what can be interpreted as a Pan-African philosophy. A philosophy which is clearly presented within the film as something Wakandans don't identify with or care about, instead identifying Kilmonger as an American with no connection to any place in Africa besides some of his blood (even the Afrikaner does that because, you know, it's true). I'd like to specifically cite the scene where Kilmonger criticizes the Wakandan court for not "helping our people", and they just incredulously reply that no one outside of Wakanda is "their" people. It was an interesting culture clash that's Truth in Television for real Africans.

I would agree with the idea that Kilmonger was pretty much a stand-in for the more negative types of American interventionism (which pretty much never took place in Africa, partly why the US is so incredibly popular there, but that's beside the point). Basically a really cynical Type 2 Eagle Land stereotype. The film wasn't even subtle about that really. Everyone in the film calls him "American" or "outsider", his job was toppling foreign governments at the behest of the CIA, he noticeably speaks in a thick American accent (complete with slang) while everyone else attempts a vaguely Bantoid one, and he shows up to coup Wakanda while trampling all over its own culture which he doesn't care about. Pretty blatant. If it wasn't clear enough, T'Challa flat-out says during their final battle that Eric Stevens is the oppressor that he always complained "white" Americans were, which Eric doesn't really deny.

My favorite scene in the film was actually Eric-centric. It was the spiritual plane trip where he revisited the site of his father's death. That scene was well-constructed on so many levels. There was a vivid Wakandan sky outside, but he spent the whole scene in his old Oakland apartment, representing his upbringing and mixed roots and crisis of identity. He appears as a child to his father, showing he ultimately never grew past his death and is basically lashing out at the world. When he cries during it, it seems he internally resolves to make the world suffer for what it did to him when previously he had a more identifiable (though still loathsome) goal in following his father's wishes, a deliberate contrast to T'Challa's own vision where he came out wiser after defying his father. Speaking of which, I also appreciated the call back to T'Challa's Civil War character arc, with Eric letting his desire for revenge for the death of his father consume him in a way that T'Challa avoided. Maybe I'm a sucker for Evil Counterpart sorts of villains.

But enough about Eric. Onto the rest.

The characters were well-written and acted (though some of the American actors clearly cannot keep up the accent), with logical motivations for their backgrounds that are clearly expressed. The comic relief generally lands, and is well-placed rather than distracting. The story had in-universe stupidity, but it was acknowledged as such, and generally kept itself tight; if there were plotholes, they weren't big enough to notice or detract from my enjoyment. All that stuff is pretty good.

My main issues were the action scenes (too choppy, and with CGI resembling a PS-3 game) absolutely terrible world-building of Wakanda itself (yes I know it's the premise, but it stretches credulity to the breaking point that any masquerade like this would hold for more than a week), the vague romanticizing of the villain in his final moments as mentioned by another poster on previous pages, and the final battle.

The final battle just confirmed to me that Wakandans are arrogant beyond all justification about their capabilities. If say the Rwandan army would've been there, or any other army toting modern equipment, you know what would've happened? All those troops running across an open field waving around spears would've been pounded into jelly by artillery from dozens of kilometers away. Don't even give me that spiel about "vibranium spears and shields", they all had exposed heads at least, and what ultimately decided the battle was a small group of club-toting luddites without any of the supposed high technology (plus they were still riding rhinos into battle). Their barely-utilized hovercraft weren't particularly impressive either, subsonic aircraft with grenade-yield plasma weapons.

But I'm rambling now. Overall, the film was quite good. 8/10.

edited 17th Feb '18 2:59:03 AM by NogaiKhan

On the whole Wakanda tech thing.

I get the impression that their technology isn't all that specialized for modern warfare.

But at the same time Vibranium is so insanely versatile if you had Shuri working on it for a year you could probably get some heafty and varied weapons out of it.

But, Killmongers plan would have still caused a whole lot of damage simply due to the fact it would take time to develop countermeasures and spread awareness. And given how powerful the weapons are already, probably hundreds of thousands to millions would have died if he had been able to get all the weapons out he wanted.

edited 17th Feb '18 6:10:29 AM by 32ndfreeze

I got the impression that the fight between Dora Milaje and W'Kabi's tribe is analogous to the Secret Service vs a National Guard infantry company: both sides are skilled and well-equipped enough for the sort of mission they're expected to perform, but are hardly representative of their country's full technological capability. The Wakandan hovercraft are evidently capable of infiltrating the airspace of a major US city undetected, so their actual frontline combat equipment are presumably no less formidable.

I think that the worldbuilding is wonderful for most parts. There's a sense of atmosphere and physicality that you don't really get from other Marvel settings (looking at you here, Asgard), and I love how fleshed out and distinct the tribes and institutions are. I don't really follow superhero comics, so I'm still wondering about the extent of the average Wakandan's exposure to the outside world; the royal family is clearly well-travelled and familiar with American pop culture, but would ordinary citizens be able to access foreign media and leave the country as they please? Are they wired to the same Internet as the rest of the world? What's stopping them from snapping Instagram stories of downtown Birnin Zana or posting Reddit AMAs?

I've heard a lot of people expressing disappointment with the action and CGI, but to me the only glaring weak point is the climactic fight between T'Challa and Killmonger. The Busan chase scene is very well done, and everything else is perfectly competent by MCU standards. I concur that they pale in comparison to the action in the Cap sequels and Thor Ragnarok, but that shouldn't be an issue for T'Challa's next outing, which is directed by the Russo brothers.

I agree with the assessment that the Black Panther himself feels slightly overshadowed, but I think part of it comes from the presence of such a ridiculously strong cast. Okoye is a grade A badass, Shuri is hilarious and entertaining in every scene she's in, both Killmonger and Klaue drip raw charisma throughout the movie, and everyone has their own clearly-defined character arc and motivation. In Civil War we saw T'Challa landing on top of a familiar cast of characters with new, mysterious powers and his own personal arc. In this movie, he enters with his powers established and his arc largely resolved, and now has to serve as our viewpoint character for the wonderful weirdness of the rest of Wakanda. Overall, the movie strikes me as less of a superhero flick and more of a political thriller in sci-fi/fantasy trappings - and I do admire how much further it goes in addressing its political themes compared to Civil War. But I think it could've taken some cues from the latter on how to impress the audience with big superhero moments from its title character.

I also love the way this movie and Ragnarok both diverge from MCU's quippy, laugh-a-minute humour formula. Black Panther is generally more serious and intense than the average Marvel movie but still puts the work into making its jokes land, while Ragnarok was built as a full comedy from the ground up (I know some people were bothered by the decision, but as a Taika Waititi fan I walked in knowing what to expect). Compare with Doctor Strange, which never really let its emotional beats land properly before throwing another shallow, plot-irrelevant gag.

There's something that weirdly bothers me about the way W'Kabi is handled. I can't quite put my finger on it, he just feels... incomplete, somehow.

edited 17th Feb '18 6:05:43 AM by eagleoftheninth

I'm seeing a lot of people saying the main character of this film is sidelined. This is not true. The main character of this film is a proud leader, a warrior at heart, who must face the fact his traditions have to change in the modern world and learn a valuable lesson about unexpected alliances in the face of adversity and in the end conquers his fears in a grand battle. A hero through and through whose arc shadows the rest of the movie. A man of wit, intelligence, battle prowess and pure hype.

I'm talking, of course, about M'baku.

edited 17th Feb '18 6:18:39 AM by Gaon

I am already looking forward to the sequel & they are already signing on the director for it.

I am also looking forward to T'Challa possibly growing into more his comic self which is that of a stoic unstoppable chess-master who can conjure convoluted plans on the spot that includes punching out Mephisto & cutting out his heart or curing Galactus aof his hunger.

Did anyone else find it kinda funny that Klaue successfully evaded the Wakandans for decades and yet the Avengers and Ultron both found him in like 10 minutes?