Marvel's Avengers Assemble

I think the Four have guest starred in Assemble at least once, didn't they? Thing even got another apperance in the episode where Hulk goes missing.

Wolverine, Juggernaut and Deadpool have all guest starred in USM. And of course, Doom has appeared in all three shows.

edited 13th Apr '16 7:03:38 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

Well, please alllow me to clarify: I don't hate the Sucksessor trope in itself, just a very specific variation of it. Cases like Azrael, the Elite, or Nolan's Harvey Dent, are good applications of this trope, and I have no real problem with them. What I don't like is the cliché version of this trope that is sadly very common in cartoons: when the new superhero shows up out of nowhere, instantly becomes more popular than the main character(s) with no effort (frequently by having said main character suddenly become incompetent for no real reason), everyone making a 180° and acclaiming this new hero even if it makes absolutely no sense with their usual characterizations (Jonah Jameson in "Back in Black", anyone?) and the main character acting unusually petty and jealous over the popularity. Putting aside the fact it seems ridiculous that people will instantly love a new flashy superhero over one who usually by this point has saved their life over and over again, superheroes are NOT supposed to care about spotlight like this. I mean, it's not like an actual business when a new more performant rival company can put you out of business: they can't lose their job because of it, they are saving lifes for free. Having them irritated by having the spotlight stolen make them look like petty jerks. Shouldn't they instead be happy to have extra-hands for help?

Sorry for the overly long rant. But point is, yeah, I am more or less bothered for the same reason than you are overall. Just as I also liked the progression of the two teams working together.

By the way, Jolt is the teenage girl who joins the Thunderbolts later on and isn't a bad guy in disguise, right?

edited 14th Apr '16 1:38:03 AM by Theokal3

Thanks for the explanation. I take back my comment on hating it for a different reason.

And yes that Jolt. I guess what I am hoping for in the next episode is that it focus more on the Thunderbolts side then the Avengers. If this sudden Heel–Face Turn is going to work, it makes more sense to give screentime to the ones making said turn and flesh out their characters (which is what made the original comics such a good read). Adding Jolt will help the transition seeing how she is the Morality Pet for the group of villains.

I meant the team as a whole appearing on screen, not individual members or villains that appear on screen. It is why I said the Fantastic Four are an exception due to their team as a whole actually appearing in an episode of Hulk and the Agents of SMASH.

edited 14th Apr '16 8:02:41 AM by BigK1337

You're welcome^^

Actually that part makes me wonder something: when exactly was it revealed they were the Masters of Evil in the comic? Because it's kinda hard to develop them properly without having the readers know about it....

First issue, I believe.

Yup, on second to last page. First issue focused on action scenes, their introduction to public and developments of characters in terms of behavior, teamwork and other things that don't require character backstories.

Wow, that's earlier than I would have expected. And kinda clever actually...

Exactly. Instead of having the audience focus figuring out the identities of these new heroes, the comic instead just give away the dramatic reveal and have the focus be on how these bad guys we grew to hate will react while pretending to be super heroes.

Though as far as their identities of being the Masters of Evil revealed to the public goes, that later on in the comics run when the Avengers return and begins to trust the Thunderbolts as a legitimate team.

What you told me convinced me to go look for scans of the original comic. I found it and started reading; I am to issue 7 so far, and I think it's awesome^^ But I digress.

Back on topic, I just saw the new episode. Terribly disappointed, for multiple reasons:

• Once again, they have Klaw show up with his design and attitude based on the movie, even though he already shew up in his comic design in USM. And yet they still expect us to swallow these two shows take place in the same continuity.... do they even care at this point?
• They do the whole "Thunderbolt making the Avengers look old-fashion" crap again in the earlier episode's half. I thought that was dealt with in the previous episode?!
• As I feared, they completely messed up in the end with the Thunderbolts; no Jolt of course, they rushed the redemption thing without bothering to actually flesh them out with them turning good just because Zemo was a dick rather than for the more developped reasons they did in the comic.
• I could buy the voice and face-modifying device to make sure no one recognize, well, their faces and voices, but.... REALLY?! it was to modify their costumes as well? Wouldn't it have been much simplier (and safer) to just change their costume for real like most of them (barring Fixer, who didn't have a mask as Techno) did in the comics?! I mean seriously, just one friggin' malfunction from that hologram thingy and they would have got caught. And when they turn good they just switch back to their fake heroes disguises and keep them as if they were real? Does this show even have a good graps on reality at this point?!
• Zemo saying that with the Thunderbolts and Avengers dead, he's the only superhero left. What about Spider-Man, the Agents of SMASH, the Fantastic Four?! Or Antman, since he left the Avengers?

Jesus, and I thought Terra's Face–Heel Turn in the Teen Titans Cartoon was rushed... I might be seeing all the bad sides because I am so disappointed, but as far as I am concerned, this episode was terrible. Sorry for anyone who enjoyed it, mean no disrespect.

edited 17th Apr '16 5:01:18 PM by Theokal3

Was going to post a lengthy post about everything wrong with this episode, but you pretty much summed up my distaste of the episode.

I guess one positive to give is that the Thunderbolts are the focus . . . . . who am I kidding, as you said they barely get fleshed out and are forced to allocate much needed character exploration for Avengers to have a hand in saving the day. Yeah I get that it is the Avengers' show so of course they will be the main overall focus but c'mon once in a while you got to do an episode that isn't revolved around the core members and this could of been the perfect chance. Even Earth's Mightiest Heroes can do an episode not focused on any of the main line up (New Avengers, anyone) as well as DC Shows like Justice League (mostly in the Unlimited episodes), Young Justice (involving the Runaways), Teen Titans (Titan West taking over for the Titans and the Kid Flash episode) and even Batman: The Brave & the Bold (there was literally an episode where Batman is not involved in the plot, he's merely there for cameo).

I guess I should bring back my old complaint about season two and how it rush their story arcs. Granted said season manage to develop the Avengers and prevent Arc Fatigue, but sometimes some plots can't be resolved in a small amount of time (in this case the whole Infinity Gauntlet storyline being resolved half way in the season). For the Thunderbolts this should of been a season long story line (or at least half) where the first half will be about the team rising from small time crooks to a legitimate threat capable of taking on the Avengers (give the Mo E two or three episodes where the last one is their ultimate defeat). And then the second half of the season and a reasonable amount of filler after said episode could introduce the T-bolts but instead of making it a Captain Obvious reveal to the audience just have them outright reveal themselves as the Mo E just like in the comics I like. After said debut episode give them three episodes which show them do heroic deeds and coming to enjoy said heroism; in the third they can do the whole Zemo scheme put into action (the comic one, not the one they gave in the show) and the team will have second thoughts and turn good (but not trusted by the heroes).

Also, your allegory to how Terra was handled in the show is very fitting to how they handle the Thunderbolts. In the comics she never made a Face–Heel Turn, in fact she was never a good guy to begin with. Like the T-Bolts she was merely mole sent by Deathstroke to infiltrate the Titans, gather their weakness and eventually capture them for HIVE. And in said comics we get to see her interact with the other Titans and form a relationship, making the betrayal legitimate and have some emotional depth to it. Where in the show they didn't show how much time she spent with the team to make the betrayal depressing, they gave her a flimsy reason to betray the team, and honestly the story would of worked better if Terra was working with Slade to begin with (minus the pedophilic overtones found in comics Slade, though we will get pedophilic undertones given the way cartoon Slade acts).

Wow, and here I thought I'm not going to create a long winded complaint. Anyway, TL;DR, the recent episode did not meet my expectations and failed to live up to the hype it built up. It started out great, but ended up shit in the end . . . . sorry to anyone who like the episode, it's just my opinion that I don't like it.

edited 17th Apr '16 7:02:20 PM by BigK1337

They could do all that, but this is Ultron season. Not a Thunderbolts season. Who cares Ultron already had his story. He has a movie. So he gets whole season and no one else. Maybe next season can focus on Thunderbolts or someone else. Or maybe they do Civil War or Thanos again when his movie comes out. Because movie. Movie movie movie movie.

And Klaw.....maybe he got turned back to human off-screen and then he got turned into sound guy again, because this is comic based cartoon and in comics characters always go back to their status quo? Would that make sense?

Also, I'm slightly baffled how Mimi uses her powers in completely different ways as Songbird.

Yeah, I wanted to mention that but forgot. Are we supposed to take that holographic device somehow warps reality to change her powers? At least in the comic she had a harness to channel her powers in a different way.

This cartoon is a really weird kind of mess. On one hand, they are obsessed with doing what the movies did, which means they try to get as close as possible to these movies, which while light-hearted still were of quality. On the other, they still write this show like if it was a 80s cartoon, with stupidity like the characters using complex holograms to disguise themselves instead of just changing their costumes (probably because drawing models of the characters without their outfits would be too expensive or something- seriously, Teen Titans was more logical when they handled the whole Robin/Rex X thing, and this was a cartoon where the main characters sleep in their superheroes outfits), or blatant toy promotion. And the two don't fit together at all.

edited 18th Apr '16 3:36:31 AM by Theokal3

Zemo not even aknowledging Spider-Man's existence at least sorts of works with how this universe (and most universes) crap constantly on Spidey's view in the eyes of pretty much everybody.

In the Avengers cartoon maybe. Spider-Man is pretty much running SHIELD Academy at this point, and outside a few Butt-Monkey moments is actually respected.

Sooo. Did Thundermasters of Evil Bolts get any personalities, motives, anything? Cause all I got from glancing at episodes that Songbird is the goodest one who's first to suggest ditching the Dark Side, Atlas is smasher so he got along with Hulk and naturally that Zemo is the evillest one so he rants, he threatens, he gloats, he hates Cap and Avengers etc, etc. And I think Techno had some issues with Stark and Beetle started talking.

To answer your question and re-opening my annoyance with this show: no.

Its like what you said about this show, who cares about character development and good writing when you got movie pandering . . . why can't this show be more like Guardians of the Galaxy? Sure that show is just as guilty at pandering but at least it is only to a minor degree and manage to find its own tone instead of just riding on the coattails of the movie in writing (kind of like The Real Ghostbusters, where we know it ties in with the movie but still manage to be its own show).

I actually feel that the recent string of episodes on the GOTG cartoon were... somewhat strong.

The totally not star wars fight between J'son and Peter was actually legitimately engaging.

I just wish Mantis had gotten to show back up. Realizing J'son is a dick should really have gotten Peter to spring her.

As for recent Avengers Assemble, yeah basically agree with whats been said.

Guardians of Galaxy are doing well? Huh. Then it's sure ironic that no one is talking about them on its forum topic.

Agree. She (as well as Adam Warlock) are characters I want to see join the team later on in the show. Why didn't Peter broke her out of her jail cell after realizing how much of a dick his dad really is?

edited 18th Apr '16 12:40:59 PM by BigK1337

Yeah, personally I kinda gave up on that Guardians of the Galaxy cartoon after the pilote. There was so much pandering it annoyed me fast, and while I enjoyed their movie they aren't exactly part of my favourite, so I didn't bother more with it.

As for the Thunderbolts... yeah, Big K pretty much summed it up. Which again is frustrating, because having recently read the comic, I can say all of them had a lot of development in it; for example, Beetle and Songbird were a couple, Songbird had big trust issues over controlling her abilities while being technicallly one of the strongest members, Atlas had a relationship with the woman who served as their government liaison, and Meteorite/Moonstone was a Warrior Therapist who was trying to take advantage on her teammates' liking of being heroes to take the team's leadership away from Zemo because she thought they would make more profit by keeping the cover rather than following his plan.

Of course it doesn't help that this show tries to adress their civilian identities as much as possible yet doesn't really abandons them like Teen Titans did. Again, this show really is bad at balancing its two sides.

You know, looking back the way they handled Ultron pretty much sums it up. They redesigned him to be like in the movie, but kept his cold logical personnality from the comic/EMH, so he ends up having the charm of neither version; they made him more of a Tony Stark villain instead of Antman, but they avoided telling WHO created him to not piss off comics fans, so we are left unsatisfied by the fact they can't tell us his origin and he shows up out of nowhere. Again, this show tries to merge movies' elements with comic books ones, and does a terrible job at making them fit together.

edited 18th Apr '16 1:29:14 PM by Theokal3

So when's Falcon's redesign?

Oh. Hi Doctor Strange.

Don't be a dick about him asking for help, Tony. Like are you really going to do this science guy hates magic thing?

edited 25th Apr '16 7:18:30 AM by Bocaj

So I binged season one, except for the dumber episodes.

WHY IS IT GOOD?

I am unable to answer that.

I AM ENJOYING A SHOW THAT I HAVE BEEN TOLD IS THE WORST.