Strike Witches

That was me. And it was not meant as an argument, just as a clarification. I believe I did specify it as such in my post.

If I might be so bold as to ask, what would constitute an acceptable non-in-universe justification for chronic pantslessness? It seems whatever Mowgli had must have since been lost to the ages.

What if this series was a show about a middle school swim team? I know it's not quite the same case but I'm curious.

Let's not derail with various what-its and oblique comparisons, please.

While I admit that the comparison is fairly oblique, it does serve to accentuate a useful point. Namely, that the persistent presence of bare legs on screen is not problematic in all cases. As such, there must needs be some meaningful distinction between the cases where it is and those where it is not. As you have already indicated, this distinction cannot be a matter of in-universe justification, and thus we can conclude that it must be justified elsewise.

In addition, I should point out that Rhyme Beat's inquest was not merely hypothetical, as there really is a show about a school swim team.

Then that work should be discussed on its own merits (or demerits) if required. In the meantime, this thread is for discussion of Strike Witches.

As for what constitutes acceptability... well, if we had hard and fast rules for the amount of exposed flesh on an underaged character or what-have-you to qualify as paedo-pandering, we wouldn't need this forum / panel / committee in the first place.

EDIT: And for "context", look at it this way: The "context" that panel members need to determine the acceptability of content refers to the actual portrayal of the material in the work, as opposed to the limited description that a poster provides. The "context" you're referring to is in-universe justification.

A Slice of Life premise about, say, an elementary school swim team may be presented differently in two different anime - one with fanservice and one without. Are both justified in-universe? Yes. But does the justification have any bearing on whether the content is acceptable or not? It shouldn't.

edited 8th May '12 9:10:28 PM by Pyrite

Maybe the camera angles play into this too. Does the camera linger lovingly on the lack of pants? Or is it just really really bad costume design?

This is true. Raven from Teen Titans doesn't wear pants but the work doesn't linger on that and it's not objectionable. How is the lack of pants treated in the work? How are they shot? It matters.

Treatment matters, so does context. In-universe justifications generally don't hold water, although there are exceptions. Hand waves like "it disrupts their mana" obviously don't count, but I think something along the lines of "based on historical people that didn't wear pants" can be more seriously considered.

The difference is like Hand Wave and sound Justified Trope.

But we've established that this is shounen, right? I mean, the English wikipedia says its seinen, but everything else says shounen. Fanservice of 14 year-olds for 14 year-olds is fine, especially in a series that can be summarized as "World War 2 with the planes replaced by Cute Witches."

Yes, it's a Shonen series.

Yes, it's for boys, and that's important.

Boys in the same age range as the characters that are most subjected to fanservice scenes, to be exact. If we had a Komoe Harumachi-like character in Strike Witches, then no Shonen demographic would excuse it under our guidelines.

I think what's important is: how important is the fanservice to the series. If it would stand on its own without it, maybe it shouldn't be cut. Also, how much does it focus/want you to focus on the fanservice, and is the jusification for their not wearing skirts or pants reasonable? Here's a quote from danbooru:

"They're not panties, so it's not embarrassing!"

A "booster" line in Strike Witches wherein the speaker tells the listeners to forget that their underwear is exposed or treat their underwear as if they are wearing something over them, probably to put their focus on their job instead.

edited 9th May '12 2:20:38 PM by UNoWho

It could stand on its own just fine. It's a war story (albeit one revolving around what are essentially child soldiers by most definitions). Like I have said elsewhere, many of the complaints would disappear if the girls would throw some effing pants on.

Also, it did get a censored release, so there's that to think about. I still think it shouldn't be cut.

edited 9th May '12 2:24:59 PM by UNoWho

Frankly, if the story works just as well with pants on, it can't really be "Nothing but porn", so I want to know that.

I am not inclined to call 14 "paedo-bait", certainly not so in shonen stuff and when it's allowed for 12+ audiences.

edited 9th May '12 2:25:55 PM by SeptimusHeap

The other things i considered in my first post are just me being cautious because they're so young, and let me remind you again that it did get a censored release.

edited 9th May '12 2:33:58 PM by UNoWho

I sort of agree. Also, "but" changed to "and" in my previous post. Not sure how important that change will be or whether I really meant "but".

edited 9th May '12 2:38:55 PM by UNoWho

Hasn't been brought up yet, but... It should be noted that the "super-uncensored" version (see the "Bowdlerize" entry on the work page) of Season 1 Episode 07 is a purely fan-edited version, and is not aired/streamed or officially sold on disc anywhere.

What does this "super-uncensored" version have to do with the matter at hand?

edited 10th May '12 9:08:41 PM by UNoWho

It may be confused with the official version, like say a doujin being used to "prove" that a work is pro pedo/porn.

And it has certain material (namely visible genitalia) that never appears in the actual releases.

It looks like most of what I could say has been covered here already, but I'll add a few notes:

The Light Novels contain non-explicit sex "scenes" (mostly fade-outs) between a 15-year-old girl and a 16-year-old girl, and there's no sex anywhere else in the franchise (not counting fan works, of course), which is just barely below the age 16 limit. The scenes don't seem to be written with titillation as the primary goal, though; they're typically intended to be humorous.

The content in the anime and manga are pretty comparable. There are two separate things that might be of issue here:

1) The lack of pants. Fanservice without regard to age range. The only thing I have to add on this is to note the ages of some of the characters: Lucchini is the youngest, at 13. Sanya is 14, while Yoshika, Lynne, Perrine, and Eila are all 15, and the rest are 16 or older. So that's just over half the main cast who falls below the 16 limit. As noted earlier in this thread, it's a shounen series, so the age range is likely due to the characters being aged close to 15-16 (the middle of the target age range), and spread out a bit on either side.

2) Onsen scenes. All characters take part at some point, some more frequently than others, though this doesn't seem related to their age. Everything's obscured by Censor Steam or Godiva Hair in the broadcast versions of the episodes, while nipples are visible in the DVD versions (both in Japan and the US).

There's no question that the series features fanservice of underaged characters, but it seems to be targeted more at the young male demographic rather than at pedophiles. That being said, it could certainly attract pedophiles (particularly if everything more blatant than this is removed from the wiki, and they flock to the few exceptions left), so I'd say it's probably worth keeping an eye on the page and cleaning up any gushing about the attractiveness of any of the underaged girls.

As the nominator, I'll volunteer to keep an eye on the series page for any problems.

(If anyone's wondering why I nominated it; it's because I just knew that sooner or later someone would, so we might as well get it over with. It's a borderline case, and deserves to be discussed, at the least.)

I'd like to say one thing about the "No Pants" issue, though many others have said something similar before.

It isn't like the characters are running around with complete below the waist nudity all the time. The characters page shows some examples of the outfits in question. They are far, far less revealing than the average swimsuit.

Personally, I really don't think there is anything "borderline" about the show. It is a very mainstream show, that has been broadcast on American TV and has much too big of an audience to be considered primary the domain of pedophiles. What fanservice there is in the anime and manga is no worse than many of the shows that we have been repeated assured will not be cut.

Edit PS: It is also worth nothing that the current page is in the Anime namespace and is almost entirely about the Anime.

edited 12th May '12 4:43:33 AM by Catbert