The Place for Purging Porn and Pedo-Pandering (AKA P5 flag evaluations)

You haven't watched many films aimed at teens then. There's a lot of teen movies than show that much sex and the books are worse. They'll never actually show nipples, but there's enough you can tell what's going on.

What they generally do is just Dawson Casting. They cast adults to play the role of teenagers and then it's all good.

edited 26th Apr '12 11:44:04 AM by shimaspawn

I'm focused on the "won't actually show nipples" part. My definition of explicit seems to be different than yours. I'm talking pornography explicit, not explicit as in, "Yes, they did it and we can see them doing it, but the naughty bits are obscured."

Graphic depictions of sex, in other words.

edited 26th Apr '12 11:47:18 AM by Fighteer

On a different note - can we distinguish between the rules for reviewing and those for cutting? AFAIK we are using ratings as a help for reviewing and the FECc rules for cutting - or rather, the 5P are.

I don't think there ARE rules for that distinction-that's what the panel is for.

@ 352 Fighteer: I think in general in almost all countries, live-action is most closely policed, followed by illustrations/comics, followed by text. (And also the MPAA is quite rigid.) So yes, there's a lot of manga that got a Older Teen label in the US that would probably be R-rated if it were a movie, and endless amounts of American YA fiction that would be at least R-rated if it were a movie.

Well, it strikes me as an odd Double Standard. I suppose the issue for live film is the exploitation of the actors, not the fact of what's being depicted? It just seems odd that what it's not okay for real people to do on screen is fine to draw or write about.

It puts us in the awkward position of saying that we are applying film and television standards to other media, when Moral Guardians give other media wider latitude in what it can depict.

Speaking for myself — I have watched anime and read manga, by the way, so I'm not working in a vacuum — it has not been my experience that it is possible to buy in, say, Barnes & Noble, a manga that depicts graphic teen sex.

edited 26th Apr '12 12:03:01 PM by Fighteer

It's more because the fact that live action gives more shock to the viewers even when the content is the same. Followed by still pictures then text.

edited 26th Apr '12 12:00:22 PM by SamCurt

Hell, in the U.S. film market, it is illegal to show full nudity of an actor under 18, isn't it? As in throw you in prison illegal.

Not necessarily. It really depends on the context. I've been told one of the Superman movies has nudity of Superman as a young boy, but it has been forever since I watched it and I'm not exactly inclined to buy it and watch it just to check how much. There are also plenty of European works with childhood nudity that can be legally purchased on Amazon.

What said. People are more easily freaked out by pictures, especially photographs/film of real people.

"Speaking for myself — I have watched anime and read manga, by the way, so I'm not working in a vacuum — it has not been my experience that it is possible to buy in, say, Barnes & Noble, a manga that depicts graphic teen sex."

Well, it depends on your definition of graphic and whether you read romance manga. I listed a few 16+ manga that are/were widely distributed through mainstream bookstore and would be at least R if they were movies.

edited 26th Apr '12 12:06:34 PM by lebrel

Yes, I know about boy-Superman — that's in the very first Peter Hyams film. Innocent childhood nudity is something that makes it past the censors from time to time, and I'd say that, hopefully, there aren't legions of perverts getting off to that scene.

I'm also aware of the European softcore stuff and have viewed some of it. Speaking again from my personal perspective as a troper, I would not want to write an article on this wiki about them.

Regarding manga that would be R as movies: well, showing tits and hinting at genitals is one thing, but I'm fairly certain that it is illegal to photographically depict a minor engaging in sex acts in the United States.

edited 26th Apr '12 12:10:27 PM by Fighteer

OK, and now for something completely different: How do the 5P discuss somethig if they don't want or don't need outside input?

What do you mean by "Softcore"? I was thinking more something like Du er ikke alene, a 1978 gay coming of age story. I don't think the fact that there is a brief shower scene with full frontal nudity makes it automatically "pedoshit". Something that wouldn't be made in the modern United States perhaps, but not necessarily child porn.

My understanding is that "explicit" mostly concerns itself with sex, not simple nudity.

@Septimus - We've set the precedent of opening a thread on the work with "5P only" in the title. There's one open on Monster Girl Hunter right now.

@Catbert: I am thinking specifically of an art film called Tendres Cousines, which portrays a 14-year old boy having sex with older girls. The boy in question is never filmed with full nudity but the material was racy enough to get some people worked up anyway.

edited 26th Apr '12 12:37:12 PM by Fighteer

@360 Fighteer: "Regarding manga that would be R as movies: well, showing tits and hinting at genitals is one thing, but I'm fairly certain that it is illegal to photographically depict a minor engaging in sex acts in the United States."

If the actors are minors, yes, absolutely. If the actors are over 18 but the characters they are portraying are minors, I believe that's OK as long as there's no attempt to mislead the viewers as to the age of the actor. But the US laws concerning child pornography explicitly do not apply to drawings and text (which fall under a different set of laws concerning "explicit depictions of minors"), which is a good thing because the guidelines that we seem to be working under here are far, far more lenient than US child pornography law.

So I guess Sengoku Rance is going to be removed.

What a damn shame. Its such a good game.

@Iebrel 366: by "there's no attempt to mislead the viewers as to the age of the actor" you specifically mean Dawson Casting is legal, right?

Yes. Look at point number 6 on Dawson Casting.

On a different topic, I wonder what can be done about subpages for work pages that are likely not to see the light of day again. I noticed a couple for Custer's Revenge still standing when I believe it can be handled to what amounts to a few mentions about its infamy and being examined by the likes of Seanbaby and The Angry Video Game Nerd.

I just would like a little input on this matter before acting on it (ie cutlisting) to be on the safe side.

Yeah. I'm not against having mentions of it on the wiki. Maintaining the still-existing subpages though?

edited 26th Apr '12 12:31:30 PM by EarlOfSandvich

Comment on porn are not automatically porn.

edited 26th Apr '12 12:30:28 PM by SamCurt

@Thorn - who says Sengoku Rance is getting cut? I was just researching it and I think it might be ok. How graphic is the sex? I can't look at screenshots right now.

Its pretty blatant.

And unfortunately there IS a scene where something happens to a young girl.

Its played for drama though.

But to remove something with pornographic material in the subject isn't fair if its used for more than just porn.

I mean, would that mean removing Katawa Shoujo too no? Despite all its well written content?

That is why I disagree with this.

edited 26th Apr '12 12:38:58 PM by Thorn14

@Earl: I suggested an Audience Reaction page for works "Mostly Famous For The Controversey" which might do the trick.

No Such Thing as Bad Publicity? But Best Known For The Controversy would also be lovely, but let's leave it to YKTTW.