The Place for Purging Porn and Pedo-Pandering (AKA P5 flag evaluations)

KBH: (I'm just speculating here, but) I think it's because while the IRL laws on CP are there predominantly to protect those who would be potentially involved in producing the work, our guidelines (more akin to media censorship guidelines) are there to protect the consumers. Hence, we have to consider the imagery portrayed rather than the actual chronological ages quoted, while under the law, the chronological age is the deciding factor (as a surrogate for physical / mental maturity).

EDIT: The Australians once tried to censor or ban porn involving apparently-underaged actors / characters, which somehow became "anyone below a certain cup size" - I'm assuming that this was an attempt to come up with hard and fast rules for this sort of legislation. The backlash was enormous, and I'm not surprised. *facepalm*

edited 16th May '12 6:30:50 PM by Pyrite

@Flyboy:

here

And FE has not, as far as I know, said that. That addition would undermine the idea that fears of the list of criteria expanding are a slippery-slope argument.

edited 16th May '12 6:38:25 PM by HersheleOstropoler

Given that Time Braid is up for review, and I'm the one who (very very belatedly) noticed that it was cut from the Fanfic Recs and started asking why that happened, I thought I'd post my thoughts here, where the 5P are likely to see them; the work's recommendation on the Fanfic Recs page was (already) cut due to being "Pedoshit" (as the terminology goes) which is the angle that I will primarily address.

The fic is based around the concept of a time loop, as described in the trope page. Sex happens in this fic, but is far from the focus of it. Sex is implied rather than explicit, and it leaves most things up to the imagination. The Sexy Discretion Shot is used to great effect by the author.

The problem that comes up is that the time loop is centered on a twelve to thirteen year old girl (I say twelve or thirteen because Naruto is very indistinct as to the passing of time, and character's birthdays are spread out over the course of a number of months). Being a time loop, the character is physically the same age at the start of each loop, but she rather clearly retains experiences and matures with the passing of time mentally. Half way through the first chapter, the main character receives a technique that (as one of several effects) ages the user by a few years.

The first instance of sex happening in the second chapter (between a trio of consenting kids the same age; this event has exactly 158 words spent on it, with the writing about it being used in general terms of the attitudes of the other participants). I'm fairly certain that anyone who's willing to read those 158 words is willing to agree that it is not explicit or pedopandering. By my understanding a group of consenting teens is not against this policy, but I thought I'd mention it. Most relationships that spring up are teen on teen, or Time Traveler on Timetraveler.

What is most likely to raise flags is the relationship between a senior ninja (Anko, who is canonically 21 at the start of the time loop) and the protagonist. However, by this point the protagonist has gone through a significant number of loops (I personally think she's probably around 16-17 mentally, and has most of the hallmarks of "repressed teen struggling with her sexuality" that you find in bisexual or lesbian teens around that age), initiated the relationship herself, and is shown on screen as having aged herself prior to the training happening (the point that the protagonist is legally an adult is something I'll acknowledge as unimportant). The sexual relationship is treated as a training opportunity and is treated as a fairly professional relationship, with no real romantic ties being formed out of it.

In short, the time loop places this seriously under interpretation, and the protagonist's aging is not made explicit, because she isn't entirely capable of tracking it herself.

I personally would not cut the fic based on what is ultimately a very very minor event in it, but I understand that there are grounds to object to the fic based on this event happening, I thought I'd offer an alternative to the likely "12 year olds have sex in this fic!" statement attached to the original flag.

EDIT to clarify: I do not know exactly what the statement in the flag was, but Oh no a Bear is the one who removed the rec, and he had the following to say on it, which prompted me to put this here so that a dissenting opinion exists.

edited 16th May '12 6:44:23 PM by NineThePuma

Nevermind

edited 16th May '12 6:36:57 PM by Martello

Two visual novels were flagged that I can provide info on.

First, Family Project. Unfortunately, it has pedo content. One of the heroines is implied to be about thirteen and has a sex scene. I don't really get why they actually gave her a route since she's just there to be a surrogate little sister with a hopeless crush but... well, there you go.

Yume Miru Kusuri is safe from pedo content, but I should elaborate. First, one of the heroines is short and pretty flat, but I don't think she actually looks like a child. Second, the main character's little sister seems to have a crush on him, is definitely underaged in appearance and appears naked once. However, it's definitely a Naked People Are Funny or simply pure awkwardness scene, thus I do not believe it is pedobait. She does not have sex. I will now provide the other information on visual novels by the guidelines.

• When are the sex scenes located?: There's a common route taking up a significant portion of the story which splits into three routes. Each route has sex scenes beginning perhaps halfway through.
  • Are they spread out over the game?: Beginning from that point, yes. There are a fair number.
    • How much gameplay is there between sex scenes?: I don't remember precisely, but enough to say that anyone using this game purely for porn must have a text fetish.
  • Are they only at the endings?: Nope. You'll see the scenes well before an ending and can still get bad ends after they're started.
    • How hard do you have to work to get an ending?: There are a lot of potential bad ends, so you not only have to put the standard amount of time in, there's a chance you'll screw up.
    • Are they in every ending? Every good ending?: Except for some of the bad endings, yeah, you'll have seen sex before an ending.
• Are the sex scenes optional via a choice in the menu?: Don't think so.
• Would the story make sense without them with minimal or no rewriting?: No, it wouldn't. However, this is not because the point of the story is fap material but because issues involving sex are part of the plot. If needed, I can explain further, but titillating material would merely be a bonus as far as the writers would be concerned.
• Are the scenes made up of stills, or are they animated?: Stills.
• How explicit are the sex scenes?: Standard stuff. Genital contact, mostly vanilla sex. I can't actually check without reinstalling because I got an error when I tried to check. However, there's neither rape nor underaged sex. There might have been light pixelation.

Personally, I would say this is an easy to pass story based on porn to plot ratio. As for pedo stuff, to me I'll restate my opinion. The one heroine that is short and flat doesn't look like she's supposed to be underaged but rather just has that kind of build. The actual underaged girl by comparison looks quite a bit different. She's thinner and gawkier.

edited 16th May '12 8:19:05 PM by Arha

@shadowthron actual pedophilia isn't required for a cut.

I'm not a big follower in V Ns or anime porn, but I remember reading on some blog somewhere that on publisher's site that they stated they bleached the pedopandering stuff out of Family Project? Which was odd because they didn't do it in Saya...whatever that lovecraft story thing was called. I really don't know I don't keep up with this stuff.

I sincerely don't care, but that info should come to light.

edited 17th May '12 1:36:23 AM by TheManInBlack

Could be. I remember some VN years ago (Snow Drop maybe?) where they cut out the possibility of having sex with the main character's sister. When you made the choices that could lead you there, the screen went black and the MC outright said that he refused to do so.

That Death Panda that's flagged, is from the same author of Mai-chan's Daily Life, already cut and for a good reason. I have an high level of tolerance (so much that I mostly laughed about most if not all works discussed so far when their controversial elements were brought up), and few pages of this managed to break it up. From the wiki page, the plot seems quite thin compared with all the sex+gorn. A gorn and bestiality free sex scene I've seen involves lesbian action between some girls that are all flat-chested and look very young.

I really, really plead the P5 (and anyone else) to not even try researching for it if they value their sanity. The little I've seen makes me, for once, say "cut without second thoughts and pour salt and acid on it". The Pet the Dog entry of the page describes a scene that may be worth the cut alone. And since we're at it, at this point the page about author Waita Uziga would be useless.

edited 17th May '12 1:26:00 AM by GendoIkari

Yeah I'll never forgive a certain troll site for linking me to Mai Daily Life and having to see a few pictures of it thanks to the way the screen rolled. Being an infamous shock image/porn that thousand of idiots like me were fooled into seeing shouldn't be grounds or reason enough to be included on the site. And given what the fuck Mai contained and what I'm assuming that manga will contain...

Purge it now. There is nothing redeeming or worthy of debate to be found in there. Ban anyone who suggests saving it. May God have mercy on our souls for hosting it.

Mai-chan's Daily Life... don't tell me we actually had a page on that pile of crap...

Death Panda... now THAT brings back memories.

We did. Mai-Chan's Daily Life was one of the casualties of the initial slash-and-burn of works pages on hentai and pedo stuff, and quite deservedly so. I've personally never read the thing, but from what I've read about it from This Very Wiki before this whole thing went down, I'm not really sure I want to.

edited 17th May '12 2:08:50 AM by TwoGunAngel

Flagged Waita Uziga by the way, just as a reminder to nuke that too.

I made the page on Mai-chan...that's a few chunks of my soul I'll never get back.

Good call.

edited 17th May '12 3:49:22 AM by Willbyr

... Well, I know one thing for certain: the page for it ain't ever comin' back.

Oh goodie. I'll miss it terribly. -__-

The only thing it is/was good for was relentless mocking, so you'll not see me crying over it.

Family Project's censoring was fiddling with CGs I believe. I think they also tried to pretend the underaged girl was older without stating it outright.

Guys, I seriously need more hollers. The resolved list organises things alphabetically, so I have to wade through the pages to find new decisions.

Anyway, I put Training With Hinako, Battlemamono, Fifty Shades Of Grey and Sister Wulfia Focka on the cutlist. I also restored Nine Songs.

edited 17th May '12 7:32:51 AM by lu127

I've tried to holler about any series I've personally closed, but I will keep an eye out for others that appear to be closed but aren't on the list.

I've heard from Komodin about the proposed sandbox page for FATAL but none of the other P5.

Probably because Saya's ambiguously aged and there's already an option to remove the sex scenes from the game. Also if you define Saya as "pedo-pandering" there's no way you could remove her romance without neutering the narrative.

I've added my thoughts to the relevant thread.

Danke schoen.

Well, this is rather suspect...