Batman General Discussion

Yeah, I never said they were well-written parts of the comics, but eh. It's a character flaw I'll stick by, because at least that way Dick would have a flaw.

Earlier portrayals of Dick (during the Wolfman-Perez era of the New Teen Titans) gave him the flaw of driving himself too hard, and by extension driving those around him too hard. He could be distant and severe, particularly when he was punishing himself for something he deemed a personal failure; he had very high standards for himself (gee, I wonder why...).

Writer uncertainty about ways to make him a distinctive character later had him getting portrayed as something of a showboat (reverting, one supposes, to their interpretation of his earlier Robin persona) or as a less intense Batman. It seemed to be dreadfully important to some writers, for some time, to emphasize that he wasn't quite as good as Batman at anything (he came near to getting Worfed, as often as he'd run into people who could outfight him—even now, a lot of people he comes up against seem to smack-talk him a hell of a lot).

Now, a lot of emphasis has been put on making Dick a character that appeals to women in particular, which has unfortunately (in my opinion) led to a sanding off of a lot of his previous edge in an effort to make him consistently likeable. He's always supposed to have been a very handsome character, but never has so much attention been paid to that aspect until recently. The same with his general likability; he was never considered unlikable but they've just really emphasized that aspect in the last 15 years or so.

To me, it's more like most other DC heroes have become either more unlikable or more flawed and unagreeable over time. By staying relatively the same characterization wise, Dick remains one of the easiest to get along with guys around.

Titans recently had the entire team, Dick included, screech about how villains can never redeem themselves (and then Roy talked about his heroin addiction because remember that time he was addicted to drugs).

To be fair, it's pretty seldom that any villain does try to redeem themselves, and when they do it doesn't seem to last. A number of the Flash's Rogues Gallery have abandoned their criminal ways in the past (Pied Piper, Heat Wave, and The Trickster—kinda) only to have all that undone because, one imagines, writers want them to be villains, and find them more interesting that way. I recall Devin Grayson having Dick deliver a speech about villain redemption once, saying that it was always something to hope for, but seldom something to be completely trusted, given his experience with said villains. Still, Dick lived in the same building as the reformed villain Amygdala, during Chuck Dixon's tenure on his title.

Interestingly, the Enchantress, so notably present in this past summer's Suicide Squad started life as a hero (and a whimsical one) back in the 60's (part of her sobriquet was "The Switcheroo Witcheroo") and then became a villain. That hasn't happened terribly often, either.

Come to think of it, that might be an interesting idea for a comic...going back and picking out one-off villains or villains that haven't appeared in a long time, and showing that they've reformed. I'm pretty sure somebody could build a compelling story around that.

It happened all the time in the Nineties, usually in the form of a goofy Golden or Silver Age villain who had retired and then joined the supporting cast.

Didn't the Elongated Man himself begin as a minor villain?

Also, technically, Plastic Man was a long term criminal before becoming a superhero.

So the moral would be, villains don't get to redeem themselves unless their power is stretching?

edited 12th Mar '17 5:39:44 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

They can sure stretch those morals, am I right?

Go to your room and think about what you've done

Yeah, and Plas kept up pretending to be a crook to better be able to get the goods on other crooks, until he joined the FBI during WWII and abandoned his Eel O'Brian identity completely.

I don't think Elongated Man was ever a villain, but I think the Flash thought he was, when they first met; I think Ralph let Barry think he was a crook to mess with him. I could be misremembering that, or it could have been retconned, or all of the above.

I get kinda tired of people wanting to portray Plas as a scewball, which seems a lazy way to go with the character. In Jack Cole's stories, he did all manner of crazy stuff, but was otherwise straight man to his own body.

edited 12th Mar '17 10:03:32 PM by Robbery

Thank you to everybody for your responses; I really appreciate it.

Given the knowledge of comic history here, it's pretty telling that nobody could identify any consistent flaws in Dick. Combining that with my searches elsewhere, I'm now convinced that if I'm looking for anything beyond generic comic book action featuring a bland hero versus an uninspiring Rogues Gallery, I can safely ignore Dick's backlog.

The issue of redemption is one of many area's where real life logic and Genre Savvy comic book logic are at loggerheads. In real life, never giving consistently bad people a chance to atone for their actions is cruel; in comics it's common sense. Having just watched MCU's Civil War, I'm seeing a similar issue regarding government oversight of superheroes.

edited 12th Mar '17 10:42:13 PM by Bionicman

It's not necessarily that they've never been given a chance to redeem themselves (there have been any number of stories like that) just that it doesn't happen often, and never seems to stick, due to the vagaries of serial fiction.

In the old pulp Doc Savage stories, Doc and his crew only faced one villain more than once (John Sunlight) all the others reformed. However, they reformed because Doc performed a special brain surgery on them to relieve them of their criminal tendencies (Unfortunate Implications galore!)

I wouldn't say Dick's backlog isn't worth reading. Particularly his tenure in The New Teen Titans as written by Marv Wolfman. That's the series that really defined him and was responsible for the growth of his fandom. He's also pretty good in the 60's Teen Titans as well, if you don't mind 60's goofiness and hep cat dialogue. He's excellent in a number of the stories he was in in the Batman Family comic of the 70's. You might track down DC's Showcase Presents: Robin for a collection of (mostly) solo stories of him as Robin.

Dark Days Is "Celebratory", featuring dinosaurs, robots and lasers, and the title has an in-story basis. "Dark Energy, Dark Matter"

So, in the latest issue, Bane is Bane. Which is fine, because Batman is Batman.

I don't know if it was plainly awesome, or So Bad, It's Good...

edited 5th Apr '17 3:50:46 PM by TheHandle

I am [ insert name here ].

So what happened exactly?

The past three arcs were recapped while Bane and Batman punched each other.

Batman defeats Bane with a headbutt while saying "I am Batman."

Bruce then has a hallucinatory conversation with Martha, who has been narrating the issue. Basically all that's said here is that evereything in the past 20 issues, the fact that Bruce went to all the trouble he did to save Gotham Girl? It's because she needed help. That's it.

edited 5th Apr '17 9:34:14 PM by caivu

And then after Bruce, on the verge of death, has a little moment with his mother, reviewing his motivations and feelings regarding the dramatic events of the last two arcs, he comes back from his stupor with newfound Heroic Resolve just as Bane gloated over his almost corpse. "You forget that I am Bane," he says as he holds his dying enemy against the wall. "Yeah, yeah... you're Bane, sure.. *cough*... but you've forgotten..." *ONE FULL PAGE SPLASH PANEL NOSE-BREAKING PAINFUL-LOOKING HEADBUTT IN GLORIOUS DETAIL* "I'm BATMAN" It was like something out of a Shonen manga, really. Stupid Yet Awesome.

I'm a bit butt-hurt about the first arc. Gotham had a confusing name, but for a series that gives sidekicks so many opportunities, he got killed off way too quickly. Fridged, really.

edited 5th Apr '17 9:36:38 PM by TheHandle

New news! Death Battle Intern Proves Joker is actually the good guy!

Whopping Nine-Page Preview of Detective Comics

Wow...

So how many Bat Family comics are going right now and what would you recommend?

I'm kind of interested in Batwoman.

Right Now:

• All-Star Batman
• Batgirl
• Batgirl and the Birds of Prey
• Batman
• Batman Beyond
• Detective Comics
• Gotham Academy
• Nightwing
• Harley Quinn
• Red Hood and the Outlaws
• Batwoman
• Super Sons
• Bane: Conquest (Mini-series)

That is not including crossovers with other properties like Looney Tunes, TMNT, and The Shadow.

Wow, that's...that's a lot. I have to start somewhere, though.

I know some comic fans have this weird smirk on their face if I mention it but I really want to read Red Hood and the Outlaws. I saw Under the Red Hood and it was a great fucking movie so I want to read some comics with Jason, too.

I forgot:

• Harley's Little Black Book
• Harley and her Gang of Harleys