This needs some serious reworking.: Token Loli

Is there any reason why we shouldn't just leave it as a note under Lolicon?

@Tony,

"Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy and 9/11..."

I don't even want to know.

@kay,

Nope.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

Because Lolicon is about a guy?

While Token Loli is something completely different as well as a specific character type and doesn't even have to be related to a Lolicon at all.

edited 15th Jan '12 6:43:13 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

If it doesn't always have to be about a loli, it doesn't need to be called "Token Loli" in the first place, and is in fact not distinct from Tagalong Kid...

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

Just merge the examples into tag along kid then and get rid of the loli trope.

to the last I grapple with thee; from hell’s heart I stab at thee; for hate’s sake I spit my last breath at thee

Token loli has to do with "moe", Tagalong kid does not. It's a Japanese only phenomenon which is why this trope is japan specific. I already explained the difference earlier. And while sometimes it's more about the sexualizing, in mainstream stuff it's more about the moeness (though in both cases it's about moe). And again, many of these characters aren't children.

edited 15th Jan '12 6:51:11 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

Token Moe Child?

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

I could go with that actually.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

...so why isn't it called Token Moe?

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

Moe is more complicated than that. Read the page.

And I will reiterate what I said previously about how the word "Loli" (and "Lolita", too; see Elegant Gothic Lolita) has lost much of "sexualized young girl" connotations.

You appear to be deliberately ignoring what I said (and others did) on the sexualization issue. Do note that persistent refusal to refute counter-arguments to your arguments automatically implies an inability to do so, and thusly that your argument has been invalidated.

edited 15th Jan '12 6:56:41 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Moe is great in scope and tough as hell to explain our trope on it is currently YMMV, (due to debate on which elements are considered Moe namely Tsundere cute or no.)

Its purest form non-YMMV would be is pandering via Weakness Played For Cute.

edited 15th Jan '12 6:56:59 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

The first paragraph of Wikipedia's article on the matter blows you away.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

I was always under the assumption that "Token Loli" was a Distaff Counterpart to "Cute Shotaro Boy". Which makes me wonder: Can't we just change the definition and rename the trope "Cute Lolita Girl" to make it a full-on distaff counterpart? I think that would make more sense than Moe being the Shota distaff.

Like I said, on its own. "Lolicon" is not "loli" on its own. Besides, I didn't say it completely lost the sexual connotations.

Depends on whether or not we're allowed to use "lolita" as a part of a trope name.

edited 15th Jan '12 7:03:25 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Imma ask you to prove that concretely, because as far as I can tell from the Wikipedia article, it has never meant anything other than "pedophile" (lolicon/shotacon) and "pedo bait" (loli/shota).

Lolita is a famous novel and movie about a deranged pedophile who repeatedly rapes a 12-year-old girl. I sincerely doubt that it's a good idea to use it or terms derived from it for that or tropes like it's names. It's negative, not positive, and should be treated as such.

edited 15th Jan '12 7:07:15 PM by Flyboy

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

The "con" in that portmanteau (Complex aka obsession) has a lot of meaning there.

Cute Shotaro Boy does not mean what you think it means. There is a thread on that one too. (one of which needs help...)

• Current usage is just any really cute calm Moe little boy
• The description is a really cute little boy who is in situations over his head like holding down a job, forced to grow up early etc.

edited 15th Jan '12 7:08:11 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

Elegant Gothic Lolita, which itself is a subset of "Lolita fashion". See the Other Wiki's article or google it yourself.

edited 15th Jan '12 7:09:09 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Link I posted earlier in the thread Lolita is an entire subcultire in japan now you can buy Lolita clothing in department stores... the types Goth Loli is just the most common.

edited 15th Jan '12 7:11:26 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

I think considering our options, which aren't many, making this Token Moe Child is the best bet. It does get away from the previous page a bit, but in this hostile environment it's the closest thing and most Token Loli and Token Shota will fit it in it. Also it's gender neutral, which is nice.

edited 15th Jan '12 7:16:26 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

Is the Internet really so fucked up that even information about people attracted to children is somehow taboo.

We have a whole fucking section of rape tropes. It doesn't imply that tropers like to rape people. It just implies that it's a part of media.

{Rude broadbrush statement about "anyone who has an issue with the word "loli" " deleted. Keep it civil, people. —Madrugada}

edited 15th Jan '12 7:34:09 PM by Madrugada

I totally agree with you.

But people seriously, stop cursing.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

This discussion just reminds me why I dislike japanese media.

to the last I grapple with thee; from hell’s heart I stab at thee; for hate’s sake I spit my last breath at thee

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.