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This needs some serious reworking.: Token Loli get usage counts

Darkness and Disgrace
I'll be blunt here, the description seems to imply that any little girl in a cast of adults was put there to appease pedophiles. Hell, the title even seems to imply this. And I've seen misuse, such as our Character Sheet for Alice in Wonderland, which to make matters worse perfectly follows the trope's criteria as stated (she's a young girl in a cast comprised of adults).
Save a webcomic, read Commander Kitty! "You got your head all tangled up, but if I could only make you care..."
I think the last time we tried to fix this one we all threw our hands up in the air and gave up eventually due to people not doing very well at staying on topic.

Well, anyway, as I understand the trope it has to contain these specific points

  1. There is a group of characters that may or may not be the cast of the entire show. Point is, they're basically a set and go together.
  2. Within this group, there is one and only one little girl
  3. This girl is used for either sexual fanservice, or in more tame settings just there to be cute. However, even then, it still seems slightly fetishistic.

Arguable points:
  1. This trope may be separate for things like dating sims or harem series where multiple girls compete for one guy. In this case, there is one girl who is much younger looking than the others. If there is more than one, it's not token loli.

It occurs to me this is probably one of the tropes in aggregate that the Green-Eyed Redhead TRS thread has been discussing.

Am I missing anything? I know there's a lot of shoehorning going on with this trope.

edited 14th Jan '12 6:21:59 PM by Arha

Rabid Fujoshi
We need a trope describing what a Loli is, but for some reason people freak out about it.

Anyway, a character can be a Loli without being a little girl and not all younger female characters are Loli's. Loli refers mostly to a body-type not the actual age of the character, but the body-type is short, usually flat-chested and child-like.

Token Loli mostly applies to Harems, echi series and romance series (and hentai). There's usually one character who has a loli appearance in the midst of taller, older-looking, bustier girls as a way to cover their bases in terms of girl-types to appeal to the audience. In truth it's not just any character who looks like a little girl in any work.
SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
I'm pretty sure Fast Eddie is one of those people who will freak out if we try to make an article for lolis, so we should probably just accept that and move on. Might have a point, even, if it affects the ads or whatever.

Anyway, yes. Whatever else we do, we need to cleanup the misuse of 'any little girl' that has a tendency to pop up. I generally view this as a harem or dating sim trope, but I think if we restricted it to those kinds of things people would make a fuss.

The trope was originally just 'a single cute girl in a cast of grownups' (this is the usage the examples and 90% of the wicks follow.) Somebody insisted on adding the moral panic part to it and then edit-warred it back any time someone removed it. Hence, the present day.

Then that part should be removed again, with a hidden comment pointing to this thread. The page is supposed to be neutral anyway.
Darkness and Disgrace
It does need a rename, though. As an abbreviation of "Lolita", you can't really spin "Loli" as anything other than trying to make pedophilia sound cute.
Save a webcomic, read Commander Kitty! "You got your head all tangled up, but if I could only make you care..."
Rabid Fujoshi
"Loli" is an existing term in anime that does not actually mean "Lolita".
SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Loli is a solidly established term wherever this trope is likely to appear. I really don't think any literature apart from maybe light novels is going to contain this one, for example.

Edit: I think what we need to do is clean up the description as noted and clear out as much misuse as possible. Stuff like Alice in Wonderland is not an example of this trope. Apart from that is there really much that needs to be done?

edited 14th Jan '12 10:20:41 PM by Arha

Darkness and Disgrace
[up]Yeah, any anime from genres not related to the above need to be removed as well. I mean, Monica from Heat Guy J? Given the themes of the show, I doubt that's what they had in mind.
Save a webcomic, read Commander Kitty! "You got your head all tangled up, but if I could only make you care..."
Cure Candy
Man where is our old thread on this?... I did some huge writeup on this there bah.

[1] ahh there it is. Reading that thread would probably be a big help here btw (I dont get why it was locked.)

Anyway

IMO

The Token Loli (The look being the real thing required) used as Fanservice (there are many types of fanservice), Moe or as a romantic interest in a cast of teens or adults (even if its not taken seriously from the guy), aimed at adults or teens.

edited 15th Jan '12 12:48:16 AM by Raso

 12 Noir Grimoir, Sun, 15th Jan '12 12:46:47 AM from San Diego, CA
Rabid Fujoshi
This is definitely not "Little kid in a cast of mostly adults" that would be like Tagalong Kid, or something, but the way. We might need a new trope for that, like in the case of Monika.

edited 15th Jan '12 12:47:53 AM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
 13 Kuruni, Sun, 15th Jan '12 2:34:52 AM Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
I just restore that paragraph. Removing it reduce this trope to simply Female Tag Along Kid. While I see that some of you seem to be bugged by it, unless there's better description to distinct this tropefrom being Girl Only Tag Along Kid, it should stay.

BTW, if Token Loli will be reduce to Female Tag Along Kid for real, then just merge them. It will be WAY more fun writing about loli from eroge amid loaded of innocent kids.

 14 Noir Grimoir, Sun, 15th Jan '12 3:08:51 AM from San Diego, CA
Rabid Fujoshi
[up]WHAT are you talking, guy?
SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
 15 Kuruni, Sun, 15th Jan '12 3:31:13 AM Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
In short, that paragraph (Token Loli is there to appeal to people with a Big Brother Instinct and/or Lolicon) is very thing that make it different from female Tag Along Kid.

Unless someone comeup with better description, it shouldn't be removed.

edited 15th Jan '12 3:32:19 AM by Kuruni

As summarized on the Tagalong Kid page: "Token Loli is an Always Female subtrope in which the Tagalong Kid is there for either Lolicon fanservice, Moe in its purest form, or both." That's what people are using it for (generally the moe one) so I don't see a problem.

Also, interestingly enough, both Token Loli and Tagalong Kid have exactly 944 wicks (though Token Loli has more inbounds).

edited 15th Jan '12 9:00:49 AM by Discar

We already hashed this one out in the last thread.

I don't see why we need to revisit it.

As for "loli" being defined, apparently it is not since several people in this thread keep using it to mean Pettanko when I'm pretty sure it requires being underage, or at least appearing to be underage.
 
 18 Bobby G, Sun, 15th Jan '12 10:13:03 AM from the Silvery Tay
vigilantly taxonomish
We need a trope describing what a Loli is, but for some reason people freak out about it.

Well gee golly gosh, I wonder whyever that might be?

But alright, I'm willing to listen. For those of us who missed it and don't speak Japanese, what do you understand by the term "loli", and why is it to be preferred over other, less loaded terms that would be less liable to cause offence or alarm?
I don't think we really did hash this out last time. We simply went back and forth until everyone stopped caring.

^ Well, there are a couple things. One, we don't have an article for the trope period. Two, loli may be preferred over, what, Prepubescent Girl For Fanservice or something like that because it's the accepted term in the anime fandom.

I would say that it fits the naming scheme, but after renaming the likes of Deadpan Loli to Little Miss Snarker I can't really make that claim. Though I feel that kind of decision is a stupid one since snark and a deadpan character are not quite the same thing.

Edit: Forgot to define, but I think you know the definition of the trope anyway. Little girl played for cuteness and, in some cases, potentially sexually as in the case of things like Token Loli.

edited 15th Jan '12 10:22:35 AM by Arha

 20 Bobby G, Sun, 15th Jan '12 10:25:57 AM from the Silvery Tay
vigilantly taxonomish
I'm sorry, I don't understand how the sexualised variant is substantially different from "Lolita". In which case it's covered under Lolicon, which is exampleless for a reason.

And if it's not sexualised, it ought to be covered under Kawaiiko, Cheerful Child, Tagalong Kid and related tropes.

edited 15th Jan '12 10:27:41 AM by BobbyG

No, lolicon is a character trope that refers to, to put it simply, a pedophile played for (non black) humor. If that sounds strange to you, well, that's Japan for you.

I would not argue that loli needs any examples whatsoever. However, there is a hole missing in what tropes we're representing. If you want to just say 'No, we're not going to do it because it's in bad taste/will affect our ads' or something along those lines, that's fine. I don't feel like arguing that point. However, it's still a trope.

 22 Bobby G, Sun, 15th Jan '12 11:09:01 AM from the Silvery Tay
vigilantly taxonomish
In that case, I still don't see how the use of the term in other trope titles is anything short of inflammatory and distasteful.

What I'm getting from this is that it is, indeed, a term heavily associated with the fetishisation of children.
Okay, but the fact remains that it's a trope. Yes, it's creepy. No, I don't really want to see it. I don't really like gory over the top violence, either. That doesn't mean that the tropes doesn't exist. They exist whether or not we document them, which is why I favor a supertrope for lolis that gives a brief description and has no examples.

Whether or not you actually call the article 'Loli' isn't the point, though I feel you should go with the established term that people are going to recognize.

 24 Bobby G, Sun, 15th Jan '12 11:18:46 AM from the Silvery Tay
vigilantly taxonomish
Is it an established term for this trope, specifically, though? That's what I'm asking. Is it a term that people will see and think of this trope?

Or will people hear characters who are legitimate examples of this trope described as the "Token Loli" and be disgusted/offended? I mean, the page description does say it's not exclusively sexual.
The term loli is an established name for that trope. Token Loli is a subtrope of it and I really, really doubt that it applies to any Western works. Thus, it is based off an established term and those who know the word loli would easily grasp the meaning of the trope.

Despite what the page says, due to the way Japan obsesses over cuteness that the presentation is going to be a little different even if the kid is just supposed to be cute.

edited 15th Jan '12 11:25:34 AM by Arha

Alternative Titles: Token Loli 2
5th Feb '12 2:26:33 PM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the name will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of Crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative names.
At issue:
Choose a name for the trope described here: Token Girl

Remember that the character must be or appear young, and that male examples, although less common, are not rare.

A gender-neutral name is preferable, since this is a gender-neutral trope.
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