Alright, so in TRS Badass Gay came up for discussion and it was agreed that there appears to big problem with the Badass X tropes in general, which needs to be sorted out until something can be ruled on for Badass Gay.
Here's a courtesy link: TRS page
. And Badass page with its subtropes. You can also visit the sandbox page here.
Noted Problems include:
- Tropes are just listings of characters people thing are badass who happen to have a certain trait. (The Badass + Trait Problem)
- Badass X as a naming scheme is actually very vague and doesn't give a lot of insight into what the character trope actually is, assuming it is a trope.
- Badass X as a naming scheme proliferates the use of Badass + Trait 'tropes'.
Suggested things to do include:
- Make it a requirement that a badass character trope means a character is "badass because of a trait", or "badass in spite of a trait".
- Renaming away from the Badass X naming scheme as much as possible.
- Cut, redefine or re-purpose things that are just Badass + trait.
There are also a lot of tropes that seem to be valid character-types, but have the naming scheme 'Badass X', when there's more to the trope than that. There are also a lot of prop or event or whatever tropes that need to be gone through as well.
Edited by Berrenta on May 15th 2020 at 7:39:14 AM
And now Badass has dropped below 10,000 wicks.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
The Unknown Unknown
Already? That's amazing.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
I think i was one of the first to move that the badass description be moved to the analysis page.
and given how fast the wicks have been dropping, there isn't much evidence to say it was a bad move
Since it looks like no new Badass tropes are desired and we're in the process of reworking many of them, anyone else think it deserves an entry on Everything's Worse with Snowclones? I had something like this in mind:
- Badass X: This trope was originally defined as a character who embodied the Rule of Cool and was followed by dozens of tropes about a character, action or object being seen as badass in some way. The problem is that "badass" is actually a very vague term that can mean a wide variety of things including "cool", "fighter", "(super)powerful", "brave", "assertive", or "fearsome", which are all either covered by other tropes or not really tropeable to begin with. The trope eventually got an Example Sectionectomy and many of its subtropes were renamed.
edited 9th Nov '16 11:14:14 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
I would like to bring back up Badass Princess and it's redirect Warrior Princess. And re propose splitting it into
- Action Princesss: princess who fight and break the useless doorstop princess stereotype.
- Warrior Princess: Princess who is in or actively leading the military and fighting for or against their country. Counterpart to Warrior Prince and potentially Commander King if we want that to exist.
The Unknown Unknown
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Sounds reasonable.
I like the idea in theory, but then we'd have to address the significant overlap between all those and Royals Who Actually Do Something. And figure how to address trope misuse.
World's Toughest Milkman
Memers' proposed tropes would clearly be subtropes of Royals Who Actually Do Something. I don't think that part's a problem.
I think Warrior Princess would work better as a redirect to Warrior Prince, since it's just a distaff counterpart. But I'm not adamant about it.
Action Princess would seem to be the intersection of Royals Who Actually Do Something and Action Girl, yes? Action Girl is a trope that's had troubles of its own, but I could still see that working.
Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
Action Girl is also supposed to be going through the same dewicking process that Badass is going through since it's just female badass.
I've been removing both whenever i've had time to do some dewicking.
I would think that playing against the stereotype subtropes would be fine for badass / action girl, A princess stereotype is literally the Damsel in Distress type which are just a complete doorstop, with a Action Princess / Badass Princess the princess rescues the prince so to speak.
Go Princess Pretty Cure for example dives straight into it with princesses kicking monster ass in hand to hand combat and make a point to show that the stereotype does not apply here. But they are not warrior princesses.
Also the big reason why I would think they would be separate tropes is in most works the Prince is being groomed to be the next Commander King type, the princess is to be married off to some political marriage to and does not any way get the trope. Warrior Princess often fight that as well as fight the enemy and such. Ashe from Final Fantasy XII does everything, the political marriage, fighting, and one of the leaders of the resistance but she is a standout and only events force her into the last two.
edited 10th Nov '16 12:06:53 AM by Memers
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Wait, what? When did that get decided upon? I don't remember Action Girl ever being mentioned/discussed here.
Action Girl had its own TRS that was separate from this thread. It was also some time back; the same time that the trope was transformed into a super trope. Although, I recall that the situation is somewhat different. Badass is getting removed entirely but action girl is more like "avoid when at all possible". Then again, I can see the argument for both.
Action Girl started a dewicking process a long time ago but once it was agreed upon it never really picked up a lot of steam.
And yeah its not a complete purge, but its like if its ever covered by another trope remove it.
Situations like
- Action Girl: This girl fights.
should be cut and replaced with like
- Lady of War - this girl has a graceful fighting style and always keeps her composure.
or if both are on the page for some reason then leave Lady of War and take Action Girl off. Or if say Ninja is on the page, then take action girl off because ninjas are already expected to fight. Same with Magical Girl Warrior or Pirate Girl or Warrior Princess or even just The Big Guy etc etc.
If being an action girl is heavily implied by all the other tropes around her, then take action girl off.
edited 10th Nov '16 8:27:25 PM by acrobox
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Ah, now that is what I remember the decision being.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Can we get back to the topic at hand, namely x5
Badass has dropped below 9,000 wicks.note Which means we're nearly halfway through considering this dewicking started at 17,000.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
I think the distinction is sound. Am I right in thinking that the key difference is professionalism? I.e. Warrior Princess went to military academy Action Princess did not.
That is amazing. I thought deleting that many wicks would take a lot longer.
Planeswalker
Royals Who Actually Do Something sounds like the supertrope to both of those things.
Oissu!
The Unknown Unknown
So let me get this straight...
Royals Who Actually Do Something: Super trope.
Action Princess: Strictly stereotype defying.
Warrior Princess; Distaff to Warrior Prince. Basically what Badass Princess is now.
Right?
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Planeswalker
Warrior Princess would apply to Princesses with some kind of fighting or warrior culture. Action Princess is for Princesses who aren't specifically warriors but still defy the Damsel in Distress trope.
Royals Who Actually Do Something should be the supertrope to both, as well as Warrior Prince and The Wise Prince and tropes like that.
edited 14th Nov '16 2:15:05 PM by PhiSat
Oissu!
Warrior Princess would apply to Princesses with some kind of fighting or warrior culture. Action Princess is for Princesses who aren't specifically warriors but still defy the Damsel in Distress trope.
What you would want to do is either just make Warrior Princess redirect to Warrior Prince, or as you said Warrior Princess for a princess of a Proud Warrior Race.
Action Princess is not a trope. Defying Damsel in Distress is covered by Damsel out of Distress.
edited 14th Nov '16 11:56:13 PM by acrobox
No defying stereotypes are tropes and that trope is not quite that in the right way.
On the other point. If she entered the army or started to fight for King and country or the people then they would be that, many Rebellious Princesses choose one or the other too. many warrior races still have non-warrior princesses even if they know how to fight.
Chi Chi in Dragon Ball Z is a princess, knows how to and does fight in the world tournament and yada yada yada. But she is not one.
Eowyn in Lord Of The Rings for example wants to be one, can fight and her people are a tribe of warriors but she has to disobey the King to do the job because of sexism.
Instead of Warrior Princess then maybe Military Princess?
edited 15th Nov '16 4:11:31 AM by Memers
Badass is now down to less than 8,000 wicks.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Badass is now down to less than 7,000 wicks.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Good job, folks!
That said, based on something I mentioned in the moderator discussions I have to ask about the current state of the Badass page. We don't do one-two sentence descriptions with most of the definition split off to an Analysis/ page (which also does not qualify as analysis except if you tilt your head quite a bit); can we move it back, at least in part?
I also presume that the Sandbox.Badass Trope List will be moved to mainspace at some point? Sandboxes are workplaces, one should not link to them from an actual article.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
The group (number varying at the time) came to a consensus it belonged on an Analysis because, well, it read like an analysis what with the various listings and definitions.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.