Holocaust: can it happen again?

It's unlikely that America will ever become a fascist state in the foreseeable future. In fact, the US is probably something of a Logic Bomb for fascism-fascism is anti-democracy and anti-individualist. American culture is very pro-individual and pro-democracy.

Another problem is that, while racism persists, being openly racist in the US is a Berserk Button for 99% of everyone in America. Now, one can theoretically make a slightly racist policy look less racist, but you can't do that with something insane like the holocaust.

"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"

You'd be surprised how openly racist people can get away with being in the U.S.

All you have to do is use the word "terrorist" and you can get away with saying whatever you want about ambiguously brown-skinned people. Ted Cruz actually wants to make it legal to strip citizenship from anyone he suspects might be connected to terrorist activity, circumventing the need for evidence or trial.

Hell, there are STILL plenty of people who claim Obama is a Secret Muslim plotting to overthrow America.

edited 18th Feb '16 9:08:08 AM by TobiasDrake

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I could argue the exact opposite.

I can say the U.S is no less likely to become a fascist state than Russia, China, or Great Britain. German people certainly did not think they would become a fascist state, neither did Chile, or Vietnam, or Italy, or Russia.

And I could argue that the easily massified people of the United States makes them very vulnerable. Just look how many and how easily people like Trump or Sanders can whip others into a frenzy of disgusting behavior (intended or not). The excess of jingoistic beliefs and exceptionalist thoughts are prevalent and plainly visible to the point it is actually pretty fucking scary to look at from outside.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

But the problem is that you're associating racism/radicalism with, well, the Holocaust. It's Goodwin's Law personified. It devalues the many circumstances and systematic flaws that had to all line up to make sure that the Nazi Party, and by proxy the Holocaust, were able to operate with such chilling efficiency. And even radical cults of personality don't equal full on radicalism as we see it in the world today.

To quote the famous Reddit copypasta, you're oversimplifying a complex situation to the point of no longer adding anything meaningful to the discussion. Yeah, America could one day do the Holocaust again. But that's just in theory, as the events leading up to WWII are certainly repeatable. It's unlikely in the immediate future though, because the sheer amount of things that have to line up, whether socially, politically, economic, or globally, to bring the social climate to a point fertile for such an event.

All such a comparison to the modern day does is spread the ever popular "fire and brimstone" sermon spiced up and modernized for our secular times. The end times are near, look at all these clear and obvious signs, if you don't support our group you're silently supporting the end of the world! Or the flipside, the end times are near, this is the time when those bad people are going to get what's coming to them, and only then are our real true ideologies going to shine through and everything will be perfect forever!

Except I am not advocating for bunkering up with cans of tomato soups. I am simply challenging the idea that one place can be so well off as to prevent something like the Holocaust happen again. The U.S certainly has scary racial tension, and those willing to take it beyond. They certainly blame a group or another for economical hardships. And the world certainly has those things in other places far more vulnerable too.

It is reassuring, certainly, to hear that there are mechanisms and difficulties, checks and balances to certain potential authocracies and genocides but again, if your whole point is that "We are immune because of these things here and now", my point is just that "That is exactly what germany/italy/russia/etc thought before Hitler/mussolini/stalin/etc". If I ever seemed to be fomenting a worldwide panic or condemnation, I am not. I am simply advocating criticism and a judgmental consideration of what could and what could not bring such a horrible thing to fruition.

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edited 18th Feb '16 3:18:46 PM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

I don't know.... Trump sounds pretty fascist to me... and I feel the strong anti-fascist sentiment that runs through the British public would make it less likely over here, the Battle of Cable Street is a famous example, a few thousand black shirts march through the east end, and are confronted by over 100,000 "protesters" (a very, very, very angry mob) and they and their police escort got the shit kicked out of them, and this was when fascism was seen as acceptable. And groups like United Against Fascism continue that proud tradition to this day, they cut their teeth battle the National Front (thank fuck they're gone, they were a really nasty group of skinhead thugs) and regularly go to see off Britain First and EDL marches

advancing the front into TV Tropes

One Fascist does not a Holocaust make. As for the UK, maybe, but United Against Fascism aren't the best of groups, they have a tendency to actually start the fights, which is not a good thing.

edited 19th Feb '16 3:02:51 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

I think they did it because violence is literally the only things the fascist understand, if they get the shit kicked out of them in an area where there is community they hate, they are not coming back

advancing the front into TV Tropes

The goal shouldn't be to get the Facsists to be afraid to go certain places, it should be to undermine them by making people not support them or fear them.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

and if you kick the shit out of them, people stop fearing them

advancing the front into TV Tropes

True, but they may start to pity them, which is worse.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

The problem is that in the end that does make you no better than them. Don't get me wrong, I don't lose sleep over xenophobic assholes getting their comeuppance. But I can't condone a bunch of violent extremists beating up people for their political stance, abhorrent as their views might be.

Also that. I can't count how often Neonazis over here played the victim card because of the (very real) risk of left-wing extremists attacking their demo.

edited 19th Feb '16 4:17:38 AM by DrunkenNordmann

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As I recall, it's mostly because a march by groups like the EDL is street violence and intimidation. They don't really do peaceful - it's an excuse for a bunch of angry, drunk skinheads to stomp around intimidating/roughing up anyone who doesn't pass the paper bag test (and a few people who do). The objective of the more violent antifascist groups seems to be to raise enough hell to either drive off the mob or necessitate a heavy police presence to contain them (because of concerns that the police would let the fascists run amok otherwise), severely reducing their capacity for violence against the surrounding citizenry. Hard to lob a brick through a curry restaurant's window when you're surrounded by several metres of safety fences and big, beefy policemen, for instance.

What's precedent ever done for us?

Thing is even when things are heavily policed UAF will often be the ones trying to start something, let the Facsist groups start the fight, yes be ready to stop them, but let them strike first.

Not only is it a good tactic when it comes to perception, but it avoids the risk of bystanders getting attacked because they are mistaken for a member of the other group, additionally if the Fascist groups attack first then they will be the ones getting arrested. We're gonna feel like real idiots if all the anti-Fascist folks are in jail and the Fascist folks are loose on the streets.

Also I don't trust people who go to marches planning to start a fight, we've got to many people using being anti-[bad thing] to justify being a horrible person online, we don't need it in meat space to, I don't want to replace Fascist groups with Anarchist ones, I want peaceful and sane groups.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

I had to google "paper bag test":

I did not know people can be this racist. Glad I've never heard of it before...

edited 19th Feb '16 4:46:16 AM by hellomoto

One fascist with power, however, can make a much, much quieter one.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

There's also all the people supporting Trump even when he says blatantly fascist and racist things. I'm sure Hitler had tons of supporters that never thought he'd actually go through with half the stuff he did.

I think the question honestly depends on how you define "holocaust." Because if you just mean genocide? We've already had a few of those. Only we called it "ethnic cleansing" so we wouldn't have to use the g-word.

If you mean the kind of industrialized method used by the Nazis, where the victims are forced into concentration camps or prisons, overworked, and then murdered en masse with impersonal efficiency, it seems unlikely to happen again.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

North Korea. Parts of Africa. Cambodia and Nepal have some very interesting takes on crime and punishment... And, then there's the US penal complex.

Never heard that about Nepal, care to give more details in the South Asia thread?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

But how many of these are aimed specifically at a particular ethnicity? Because it's not just about how you're killing people, it's about killing people because of a specific pointless genetic marker. If you're not trying to wipe out a particular group of people, you're just a mass murderer - Mao and Stalin certainly killed enough, but it was based on politics.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

Ethnicity, religion, or political beliefs.

For Africa, there's the whole Rwanda thing. Dunno if you heard about it. Also the pygmies.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

I potholed to Rwanda, actually. I'm not sure where the pygmy murders were happening, or I'd have included that too. Both Rwanda and Yugoslavia happened during my lifetime, well after WW 2.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

I think something as terrible as the Holocaust can happen again; maybe not in the same place involving the same countries and ethnic groups though.

The Islamic State is committing genocide against Yazidis and Christian groups as we speak; maybe not with the same organization as Nazi Germany, but they don't have the same sort of government backing. I fear for the Kurds in Turkey right now, who are being attacked and bombed under the pretense of being associated with the PKK. Labeling the entire race "rebels" is exactly what led to Turkey committing the Armenian genocide a century before, which they continue to deny and benefit from, opening the possibility for future genocides. All Turkey needs is for the rest of the world to be distracted.

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