Clean up to match new definition NEW CROWNER 03/02/12: Greeneyed Redhead

YOU want people to prove something, but you prove nothing yourself. Comparing the number of wicks is pointless, because it doesn't say anything about the usage of the trope in media. Wicks only tell us about the usage in TV Tropes and how popular this trope is with the troper community.

Do you really think that the number of works which are Deconstruction (2350) is 3.4 times the number of workes ending Happily Ever After (687)? I don't. But I belive that the troper community considers Deconstruction to be at least 3.4 times cooler than Happily Ever After. So everyone tries to put Deconstruction as example to their favourite show.

edited 12th Jan '12 9:24:29 AM by Osmium

I really doubt that we are going to come to consensus on this through discussion. Some of us are convinced that this is a valid trope, and some are not. Would a page action crowner be useful at this point?

When a side is using reasons and arguments with back up and the other just refuses to listen we wouldn't make a good crowner.

"You prove nothing yourself. There we go again. Argumentum Ad Nauseam for the win, right? Why should you bother bringing anything relevant when you can just accuse me of "not proving anything"? Ignoring the arguments of the contrary seems to work pretty well for you. I guess I'll start doing it whenever I talk to you.

BTW, and last thing I bother about you and your fallacies: Deconstruction is not a trope. It's a tool used in tropes.

@shimaspawn: growth actually doesn't prove the true number of works that use a trope because the works are going to stay there the same.

However the sheer number of works that we have troped and the number of links a trope has do make samples big enough to make a good statistic about it. Statistics that actually prove my points, but that you refuse to acknowledge for reasons that I don't know. I think it's that you are attached to this trope, or something like it.

@helterskelter: again, there are more characters with other combinations of hair and eye colour that are "special" than Green Eyed Redheads are. So don't claim that having that makes them unique automatically. Besides, Lily: it was the eyes that were important and not the hair. Hawkgirl: the DC universe is quite more than just the JLA, and outside of it she's nothing. I concede that Mary Jane is important, though, but I remember Peter thinking that she was superficial and leaving her for Gwen Stacy, who got killed. If not for that Mary Jane would have stayed a secondary character.

edited 12th Jan '12 9:50:37 AM by DrMcNinja

There are no heroes left in Man.

Her eyes could have been any color. They just had to be Harry's eyes too. And even if it had to be green—why was red selected along with that eye color?

"again, there are more characters with other combinations of hair and eye colour that are "special"..."

But it's not unique or special that they have those colors at all. I'm saying that these colors, in real life, are unique and special, and are used to visually identify a character as such.

I'd say it's the same sort of thinking that led people to say blue eyes are innocent (babies have them) or blonde hair is a symbol of goodness (because youthful people tend to have lighter hair, like towheads, because light color is associated with goodness and purity). Red hair and green eyes are enormously unique colors, and together they look striking and unique—so these combinations are chosen to make a character visually striking where it's important that they are notable.

This is part of the reason why it's probably not notable in Anime & Manga—red hair and green eyes aren't the only color combination that's special. Blonde hair and blue eyes do the same thing. In fact, any color not black and brown will do, which is probably also why You Gotta Have Blue Hair.

Re: Hawkgirl—in the comics she has brown eyes. Once she was given a starring role in DCAU, she was given green eyes, which I think only further highlights my point. ETA: Although I would point out that the DC universe is so damn huge that pretty much anyone outside of The Big Three are unimportant—in her debut comic, she was important. And even a side character that is given a starring role in their debut briefly should count.

edited 12th Jan '12 10:02:48 AM by helterskelter

Why was selected? No one cares. Authors Like Green Eyes In Redheads is not a trope, is something that happens. If the trait changes the importance doesn't, and that's what makes the trope.

And the characters are not unique because of that trait. They are unique and that trait. It's like they were discussing about the Badass tropes. Badass and trait is not trope, Badass because of trait is.

edited 12th Jan '12 10:42:48 AM by DrMcNinja

There are no heroes left in Man.

And no one is innocent because they have blue eyes. You might as well say "Why were blue eyes selected? No one cares!" because you absolutely refuse to look deeper than that.

Red hair, green eyes are highly rare, are special, in real life, thus this is translated as being traits to give special or important characters, because such a rare color combination made the characters stand out.

Blue eyes are found in children as well as being light in color, so blue was selected to convey innocence in a character.

edited 12th Jan '12 10:51:44 AM by helterskelter

Statistics that actually prove my points, but that you refuse to acknowledge for reasons that I don't know. I think it's that you are attached to this trope, or something like it.

I don't acknowledge your points because they are based on wrong assumptions, and I gave several reasons why your numbers can not the base for any proper statistic. Instead of finding any proper argument to counter my point you start with personal attacs. Do you really believe this helps you proving your point?

Ignoring all examples, I'd be willing to agree that red-hair-green-eyes says a character is something. But what? "Special" isn't really an answer - "special" just mean has an attribute others do not. Innocent Blue Eyes says that someone's special through their innocence. Dumb Blondes are special through their dumbness. What does "special" mean in this case?

Sexy? Strong? Superpowered? Brave? Ostracized? Born with a destiny? Determined? Lonely? Retarded? Universally beloved? Living Macguffin? The Not-Love Interest? Gonna Use Her Fingers? I'll take any of those - if they authors really do use red hair to express that quality. But "Authors use red hair and green eye to show that a character has a characteristic" means nothing.

That would be more a reason to say that Innocent Blue Eyes is not a trope than to say that this one is.

I still expected that answer. But blue eyes in fiction to denote innocence is something that contrasts highly with Real Life, where people who are innocent grow out of it quickly and it's a quality only related to kids. And if you go with Children Are Innocent being a trope even though it's normal you have to remember that it's a trope because it contrasts with many other kids in fiction not being innocent at all, or even feigning innocence.

Besides, "uniqueness" is more a YMMV than innocence. I personally don't see anything that special about a Green-Eyed Redhead. It catches more my eye the fact that Mary Jane is married to a superhero, that Lily (who had brown hair in the movies more than red) was the mother of the Harry or that Hawkgirl is a flying alien than the looks. Looks, unless stated as something plot relevant, aren't really noteworthy enough to be tropes. If you can change the looks and you have the same character but with a different look then the looks weren't important to begin with.

So look for another thing. If you find it I won't have any problem with the trope staying.

edited 12th Jan '12 11:03:48 AM by DrMcNinja

There are no heroes left in Man.

I don't think it necessarily has to mean something in particular, though. I think it's enough that this deviation of reality is used to denote something, even if it's broad and kind of vague, for it to be a trope.

If we want, we can hammer out something a bit more complex—but I feel like I've sufficiently proven that this is a trope.

@ Dr Mc Ninja: And the fact that that's what you think shows to me you cannot see tropes where they exist. I cannot prove to you it's a trope through rigorous qualifications, but through pattern and the state of this trope's "existence" in real life. That's the only way you can prove something like Innocent Blue Eyes exists.

Neither of those are criteria for said tropes. It's just blue eyes = innocence, children = innocent. Not "only some children are innocent" or anything like that. You seem to be under the illusion tropes have to be extremely heavily structured. Not so.

Which is why I've been saying "importance", not just "uniqueness".

"Looks, unless stated as something plot relevant, aren't really noteworthy enough to be tropes."

I don't think I can argue with you anymore. This is just so completely wrong.

edited 12th Jan '12 11:08:23 AM by helterskelter

If you admit it's broadness and vagueness about something that you can't even describe what makes your arguments then they are not arguments good enough for me to consider this a trope.

EDIT: As I said those tropes contrast with Real Life and that makes them tropes. Your insistance in "importance" and "uniqueness" being automatically related with a Green-Eyed Redhead has already been adressed: if the character remains as important and unique when you remove that trait then the trope you're seeing does not work the way you think it does.

If you don't want to discuss it no problem, I won't force you. I just want someone to tell me something that is automatically and inevitably related with a Green-Eyed Redhead in a work and that making that character don't have these traits also eliminates the quality related to them. Otherwise we have no trope.

edited 12th Jan '12 11:20:07 AM by DrMcNinja

There are no heroes left in Man.

As I said, it's enough that they're important characters. But I am done arguing with you, period.

@helterskelter: So, basically, your hypothesis is "Blue eyes and blonde hair symbolize innocence since younger people tend to have them. Likewise, red hair and green eyes symbolize specialness and importance of a character, since they're rare in Real Life". Did I get your idea right? Now, let's refute it

Hawkgirl. Who is more special — an ascended B-lister alien, or the blueeyed brunette Wonder Woman, the Amazon hero of female empowerment? Who is more important in the JLA? (Btw, she was most likely given green eyes because the contrast is better for a cartoon).

Mary Jane Watson. She was meant to be beautiful, I agree. You theorized that her creators gave her red hair and green eyes to denote her beauty. That's what I meant by "greeneyed redhead = bombshell". But still, MJ was created greeneyed and redheaded, but she wasn't created to be Peter's wife. She was created to be a hot friend and somewhat rival to the main character Gwen Stacy, a blueeyed blonde.

Lily Potter is an important character in the HP saga... amidst loads and loads of equally important characters. E.g., the saga's main Mary S important female character, Hermione Granger, is not a greeneyed redhead — she has light brown hair, and I don't know her eye color. The part about Harry's eyes is important, true, but at the same time, Harry himself is not a redhead — the most special character in the saga ever!

And even if we count Lily as an example of "unique appearance that is treated in-universe as unique and important in its uniqueness" (which she is)... how many other redheaded and greeneyed examples of this trope can you list? Hawkgirl's appearance was never treated in-universe as "unique and important in its uniqueness". Neither was MJ's — her appearance was only treated as "hot".

Do you have examples of some greeneyed redheads that could fit this trope?

They don't have to be the single most important character in a work to be special or to be main. The design makes them stand out against the background peons. Not automagically the lead character.

MJ was frequently treated as special in Spider Man. You apparently weren't reading the same comics.

edited 12th Jan '12 11:31:33 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Are you saying that the fact that she was hot wouldn't have been mentioned at all if she had blue eyes instead of green eyes?

edited 12th Jan '12 11:35:55 AM by DrMcNinja

There are no heroes left in Man.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the artistic designer made a deliberate choice to make her stand out and reinforce her specialness.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I actually do think this is a trope, and that the trope is "Someone with red hair and green eyes in media is meant to be hot, sultry and striking, and when a female appears with this combination she's usually a Love Interest or mysterious Femme Fatale of some kind."

I feel like the examples actually support this claim.

edited 12th Jan '12 11:42:52 AM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

Yay! A trope!

(Now just remove all the bad examples.)

Males I don't think get the Love Interest part, but the 'mysteriousness' and vaguely suspiscious-ness and bad news part of the Femme Fatale part they do get applied to them.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

Could it work if we made the following?

• Rename to "Green Eyed Redheads Are Sexy".
• Remake the definition to be about this trait and nothing else. Just Green-Eyed Redhead wouldn't count, sexyness has to be notable (I don't see for example Lily Potter as sexy, not at least as she's protrayed in the movies).
• Clean every example that doesn't fit, like Gaara of the Desert or others.

With that the trope would have a meaning of it's own and I would have no problem with it staying. Does it sound good?

There are no heroes left in Man.

Sounds good to me. A rename is definitely in order otherwise people are going to shoehorn every green eyed red head into it.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

I think special is also a valid trope. This colour combination is really never used for a background character. Only characters that have some importance to the plot or are one of the main characters. Not always the lead, but the fact that they tend to be love interests is sort of a subtrope of this.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

@Zulfiqar: I have explicitly said it's not necessarily they are the most important character.

I disagree that your new suggestions are what we should be looking at. You are look for common traits amongst these characters when you shouldn't be—yes, some of them have these traits. But if you look at Most Common Superpower, I will be able to pick out a number of similar traits these characters have, simply because there are many examples.

I think you are looking at many different tropes and applying it singularly to this one. Fiery Redhead, Heroes Want Redheads, namely. Green eyes is common because, again, these fiery Femme Fatales, these love interests, are important characters, and green eyes make them distinctive. ETA: Also, what Shima said. The presence of those tropes does not negate this one.

I already addressed this. What she looked like was actually relevant, and she was also a relevant character when she first appeared. She was not some random classmate. She was a distinct person given a distinct personality. Even if she was a Romantic False Lead to begin with, her actual appearance was important, and I'm saying this color combination was chosen to highlight that.

The rest of your points fall under the category of "I never said MOST important".

edited 12th Jan '12 11:55:36 AM by helterskelter

@ helterskelter:

Look, most appearance tropes don't work that way.

• Innocent Blue Eyes - blue eyes symbolize innocence. If I make an innocent character, I hint at it by giving him/her blue eyes. Other characters, who aren't innocent, aren't given blue eyes.
• Hair of Gold - blonde hair symbolizes goodness. If I make a paragon of good, I hint at it by giving him/her blonde hair. Other characters, who aren't such goodie-two-shoes, aren't given blonde hair.
• Eerie Pale-Skinned Brunette - dark hair with pale skin symbolize eerie mysteriousness. If I make an eerie mysterious character, I hint at it by giving him/her dark hair and pale skin. Other characters, who aren't eerie and mysterious, aren't given dark hair with pale skin.
• Fiery Redhead - red hair symbolizes fiery temper. If I make a character with a fiery temper, I hint at it by giving him/her red hair. Other characters, who don't have such a fiery personality, aren't given red hair.
• Greeneyed Redhead - red hair with green eyes symbolizes TRAIT. If I make a TRAIT character, I hint at it by giving him/her red hair with green eyes. Other characters, who aren't TRAIT, aren't given red hair with green eyes.

Please, try to replace "TRAIT" in the last example with whichever trait, you think, is symbolized by green eyes red hair.

---

@shimaspawn: You know how many non-Greeneyed Redheads fulfill your criteria?

Btw, Peter Parker, with his hazel eyes and brown hair, has for some reason no problem with "standing out against the background peons", most popular Marvel superhero and all.

I'll reiterate. She was created redheaded and greeneyed. She was created as a secondary character. Later, she became one of the main characters. Note: she didn't become a Greeneyed Redhead when she became important. She was a Greeneyed Redhead before it was cool when she was still meant to be a secondary hottie love interest's friend-rival.

When MJ was created, Gwen Stacy was a much more special and important character than her.

---

@Noir Grimoir: Let's discuss them, then? Starting with Hawkgirl

---

UPD @shimaspawn: Background Characters Are Never Redheads? That's an interesting trope. But quite a different one.

edited 12th Jan '12 12:01:15 PM by Zulfiqar

I do think specialness has something to do with it. Basically these characters are important enough that the creator chose to highlight that by giving them this color scheme. For whatever reason, you're meant to pay attention to this character, a background character is mostly not going to be given this color scheme.

I think Striking Green Eyed Redhead might be a better name.

edited 12th Jan '12 12:01:51 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)