General Star Wars Thread

So, random thought. Am I the only one who thinks that, were it not for the fact that the audience knows it's a prequel, ROTS would be one of the most depressing films ever made? It's a complete, unequivocal victory for the bad guys on a scale rarely seen outside of grossout horror movies and Anvilicious political flicks.

edited 8th Oct '14 2:25:13 PM by HamburgerTime

I have seen children who happened to have watched the prequels without knowing they were, well, prequels. The reaction to Revenge of the Sith is always something akin to complete shock and an audience-form of Heroic BSoD.

If you interpreted the prequels as their own thing without connection to the originals, you could, conceivably, construct a fairly straight-forward narrative of good going up against evil, and ROTS would be theoretically when Anakin would strike down Palps and fulfill his duty as the chosen one, but ROTS instead tosses that out o the window and everything goes to shit. It's very brutal.

edited 8th Oct '14 2:49:36 PM by Gaon

And it comes like halfway through the movie, too. So if you somehow didn't know who Darth Vader is, but did see the prequels, you've got one heck of a crisis on your mind.

I think that probably Anakin Skywalker was never going to live up to the expectations of people who'd lived off the Star Wars original trilogy.

...also I feel like there's a certain beauty to the idea that whininess leads to the Dark Side.

I remember a number of people were disappointed that Vader didn't kill all the Jedi personally. I find that kinda silly.

That said, most of the Jedi die such lame deaths it makes their glorious, legendary reputation rather laughable. Having Darth Vader kill them personally at least establishes Jedi as being threatening enough to warrant an elite being sent to kill them, not just mooks, even if it'd be impossible for Vader to personally hunt down hundreds of specific people.

Also, people who were somehow shocked that Anakin turns evil weren't watching carefully enough. The guy was a ticking bomb right from the start, and Lucas was intent on him seeming evil-lite as soon as he became an adult. I mean, Anakin is a constantly glowering guy dressed in black leather with a hard-on for fascism and people are shocked when he turns?

edited 8th Oct '14 8:24:06 PM by CrimsonZephyr

At least heading up the initiative that hunts them down?

Even the Purge itself is just kind of iffy. I mean, an organization that was a part of galactic society, and received government endorsement, for thousands of years is proscribed with the full support of the populace? How were the Jedi able to thrive for so long if they could not get any positive publicity in twenty-five thousand years? The fact of the matter is that Lucas had to get rid of every Jedi who wasn't Luke fast enough so that the entire Purge is done within nineteen years of continuity. So, every Jedi gets killed like a wimp and the entire Galaxy suddenly hates them for no identifiable reason, other than an Obviously Evil man's word. And don't bring up Hitler — Hitler preyed on minorities that had been powerless and hated for thousands of years.

It is implied that the Jedi's popularity has been waning a bit in the last hundred years or so, with the lack of a war to fight and their strange ways making people see them as complacent and slightly insane. In the Clone Wars they get to show what they're made of, but the fact it took three years and the fact Count Dooku was a former Jedi himself affected the public perception heavily.

Lastly, the Jedi did, techinically, attempt to deliver a coup upon the Galactic Chancellor. With Palpatine's word-twisting, their actions get cast upon as a order of religious fanatics trying to usurp the rightful ruler of the Galaxy. In the expanded universe it is claimed Palps also provided "irrefutable evidence" the entire Clone Wars were a Jedi plot to take over the galaxy, and Count Dooku never really left the Order, merely pretended to.

But it's never stated. We go from "Jedi are government-funded superhumans" to "Jedi are killed and proscribed" without really getting a sense for what ordinary people think of them at any point. The Galaxy is just there to drink Palpatine's kool-aid without protest because actually showing him facing challenges in assuming power would take too long. Palpatine also does little to convey trustworthiness, seeing as he perpetually has a pedosmile on his face and the only thing he actually does is destabilize his predecessor's government.

The one unequivocally good thing about the sequel trilogy is the lack of a Cosmic Deadline in its storytelling.

In fairness to Lucas, I doubt there was much he could do about the nineteen-year deadline, given that was Luke's established age. Making the deadline any wider would result in Luke being conceived when Anakin was already Vader, which would mess with the backstory.

edited 8th Oct '14 9:33:28 PM by HamburgerTime

The Jedi Order has varied in how expansive it is in the galaxy. Various Sith Wars diminished their numbers at various times for some 10,000 years. Order 66 is notable mostly for the unique and subversive nature of the Clone Wars and for just how closely it came to be a complete destruction of the Jedi. Obi-Wan and Yoda were the only ones who survived who were intelligent, patient and clever enough to set things in motion to undermine the Empire in time.

Well, the only characters we have who are old enough to remember the Jedi are Han Solo and Uncle Owen, and from them, I get the feeling most people outside the Core Worlds don't really care much for the Jedi. Of course, Owen had to scrounge for water in a desert while worrying about getting raided by crazed natives, and Han's lived a smuggler's life and has only had Chewie for a long time, and he was apparently a kid when the Republic was reformed, so they may not be reliable gauges.

The Core Worlds seem a little too eager to abandon an institution that's as old as Republic. Think about the carnage that England inflicted upon itself and the Anglophone world in the 16th and 17th Century when they decided to break away from the Papacy. Now apply that to an entire Galaxy with the Jedi. People are inherently conservative creatures, and will preserve institutions simply because they are there.

Eh, with so few Jedi, who's really gonna miss them if they're not on a warzone planet or Coruscant? There were fewer Jedi per planet than there are Space Marines per Imperium world. And I never really got the impression from anyone that the Jedi were all that well-liked. All throughout Phantom Menace, everyone in the Queen's party snipes at the Jedi at least once.

You're forgetting the fact the Jedi Order, as far as the general public is concerned, is on the midst of a public insurrection against the Republic. From the Galaxy's perspective it's a rebellion being quelled.

Almost no one would care. Kings and governments have had religious insurrections against them, and people have favored the religion over the king. A group that had been a part of society such that a thousand generations of citizenry knew who they were, and who were the ONLY religious organization seemingly, in the entire Galaxy, would give them the benefit of the doubt over a leader who had been in power for little more than ten.

And where is the Jedi's version of Magneto? They need a guy who sees the Ungrateful Bastard Republic and wants to overthrow their government, kill non-Force users by the hundreds of billions, and usher in a Jedi-led Empire. Then, it might make sense to distrust the Jedi, but so far we have just one Jedi who went rogue in the official canon, Dooku, and pretty much none of the Jedi we see had ever antagonized the government. Lucas was trying to turn the Jedi into ersatz X-Men mutants, but while that series has a heavy dose of Strawman Has a Point underlying its Fantastic Racism themes, there is literally no reason for the public to distrust the Jedi and every reason to distrust Palpatine, because the Jedi behave completely benignly most of the time. Basically, Palpatine says, "The Jedi are taking over! They are evil!" while looking like Satan, and the people are like, "Guh huh! A-yup, these Always Lawful Good Jedi are evil!" What.

edited 9th Oct '14 4:17:48 AM by CrimsonZephyr

Again, you're assuming most of the Galaxy's citizens really care about the Jedi. Unless their planet is a battlefield for the Clone Wars, or they live on Corsucant, most people would go their entire lives without ever meeting a Jedi Knight. The ones that do usually take the form of parents who see their children taken away by the Jedi if they have Force sensitivity.

edited 9th Oct '14 8:48:18 AM by maxwellelvis

Palpatine was massively popular by the end of the Clone Wars (being the longest-serving continuous Chancellor of the Galaxy, as ROTS mentions), a lot more than the Jedi, who were so-so. So when Palpatine "proved" that the Jedi had attempted to kill him, even heavily disfiguring him, in an attempt to take over the Galaxy, people would of course be outraged. It's not the benefit of doubt, it's (theoretically) empirical proof the Jedi were on a full-on insurrection to destroy the Republic.

It'd be something akin to the Catholic Church trying to kill Franklin Roosevelt and take control of the government.

Incindentally, the "Jedi Magneto" you just mentioned seems to be how Palpatine paints Mace Windu (the Jedi who actually tried to have him killed).

Some planets(like Jabiim)were also abandoned by the Jedi led army during the war.

Why is Palpatine massively popular? Nothing except crisis after crisis happened during his administration. FDR and yes, even Hitler, could point to economic reform to bolster their credentials but the way Palpatine is portrayed, he's a useless leader presiding over a fracturing government and has done literally nothing constructive about it. FDR literally saved the economy of the United States. Hitler brought Germany back from economic ruin. If either were attacked in 1933, they would have had universal support. Palpatine's level of administrative brilliance is more akin to James Buchanan, and if he were killed by the Catholic Church, most of the US would have been like, "Fuck yeah!"

Chancellor Valorum, his immediate predecessor, was seen as a weak, easily corruptible man who let Corrupt Corporate Executive rule the Galaxy with impunity and do as they please (whether this was the actual case or not is never made exactly clear). Palpatine, meanwhile, had his rule characterized as a strong, fierce, who stood up for democracy and was unafraid to battle the big corporations whatever the cost (the literal first action of his regime was fighting the CIS) and "single-handedly" kept the Galaxy from being conquered by said evil corporations and later by the supposed Jedi uprising.

In other words, Palps was seen as a beacon of justice of sorts.

(All from the viewpoint of a normal person in the Republic)Palpatine took the place after the old corrupt leader was deposed. People loved him for removing corruption and bringing Justice, Freedom and Peace back to the Republic once more. Then years passed during which time a Jedi Master started the CIS and threatened with war. Palpatine did everything in his powers to stop the war from happening but sadly the CIS struck first and a brave Senator had to give the great Palpatine emergency powers to bring back Order to the Republic. Years passed during which Palpatine was more or less Churchill with a friendlier face. Jedi struck down revolts and uprisings fueled by the CIS(leading to even greater Jedi hate) with many Jedi dying to droids or giving their lives for the cause. When the Jedi and some more liberal Senators started talking about deposing Palpatine the evil General of the droids kidnapped him leading to the "Hero of the Republic" having to rescue him and kill the vile leader of the CIS. With the General still out there the war kept going for a month or two only for word of his death reached the capital the same day the traitor Jedi tried to kill the great Palpatine and take over the galaxy. Luckily for the Republic they were all killed by the "Hero of the Republic" and the great clone armies of the Republic.

And then the Empire is created and Palpatine is unstoppable.

The people loved him.

Edit:You said it better.

edited 9th Oct '14 1:14:03 PM by LordofLore

Palpatine put on a face of a strong, uncompromising Chancellor who fought corruption to a standstill. The Jedi and some politicians had concerns about how much executive power he had been given because of the Clone Wars, but it was all done legally with the support of the Senate and he used those powers exclusively for the purpose it was intended for. That's what made Palpatine so devious, the situation was created by him so that he could appear above it all. The damaging effect of corruption remained but he was not associated with it. He did not have to break character to seize power and instead power was given to him until he had a lockdown on the entire Republic.

The Jedi, for all intents and purposes, was more of a political or military faction and not some sort of state religion. And that was before the Clone Wars made them almost strictly military.

To back up what others have said, the Jedi have left a lot of problems in their wake prior to the Purge. Imagine the reaction if it ever got out it's the Jedi's fault that General Grievous exists.