General Star Wars Thread

I have to say I'm surprised you're such a big SW fan, Zephyr. You don't seem to really... like many of its core themes all that much.

For example, there is never going to be a morally good character who uses the dark side to fight while still being a good character. That's never going to happen. It's fundamentally against the nature of the Dark Side.

TOR does have Light Sith, actually.

The Vietnam Generation was amazing, there's no need to slander them.

Eh, it's a little bit of gray but otherwise the story still treated him with "he's all good now but was bad guy once so he must die." That ain't exactly a nuanced depiction of real life moral issues; it's basic authorial story karma of "good guys are rewarded, bad guys are punished."

The same in The Force Awakens when Finn opens fire on fellow stormtroopers without any qualms, because "good guy now means he does good guy things, which is shoot bad guys."

edited 9th May '16 2:33:09 PM by Tuckerscreator

@Hamburger Time: I'd argue that they're still a A Lighter Shade of Black, since in the most general cases, their actions do go on to benefit the Sith Empire as a whole.

Those fellow stormtroopers are also trying to kill him, might I add.

edited 9th May '16 2:35:37 PM by higherbrainpattern

And don't they spend most of their time getting picked on by the Dark Sith, as well?

"It's arguably not the right place to be looking for nuance."

And yet you have movie like Mad max fury road who have some nunace even when is a full B-movie, also is a pretty conservative response "well if the setting is fantastical them is nothign we cant do, TFA just decide to return to ANH because....OT I guess

You and I have had this conversation before, man. Surprising as you might find it, I actually do like Star Wars for Star Wars, but I dislike when it takes shortcuts or uses outdated cultural references to sway the audience's emotions. I like that it is one of the few sci-fi/fantasy works that isn't outwardly right-wing in its political leanings, for one, its Good Republic, Evil Empire bent, its acceptance of the possibility of the evil redeeming themselves (even if I think it always is portrayed too matter-of-factly or easily), and I like that it has something more to say, without becoming excessively maudlin, philosophical, or stupid. What I don't like about is its ridiculous, outdated anti-establishment bent, because in my own reading of history, I've never seen any positive change happen without either the permission or the support of the establishment, and revolution only makes things worse. Authority matters!

"For example, there is never going to be a morally good character who uses the dark side to fight while still being a good character. That's never going to happen. It's fundamentally against the nature of the Dark Side."

Well, okay, fine, but as I haven't suggested this recently, let's not make it a point of argument. What I'm talking about is giving nuance and complexity to political views and worldview. Like, we tend to view everyone we disagree with as either monsters or idiots, but you can portray opponents as still being human (or in this franchise three-dimensional in general) without dropping the assertion that they're kind of wrong or completely wrong. Even Palpatine, Complete Monster extraordinaire, had Wicked Cultured facets that made him seem like more of a fully realized character and less of a caricature.

edited 9th May '16 2:43:24 PM by CrimsonZephyr

I know. But in real life one would at least feel a little sad about that because up until now this has been Finn's life.

If one found out that their high school was actually a front for ISIS, and one's fellow students turned on you as you try to escape, and you have to shoot your way out... I wager you would feel at least a little bad about it even if you know definitively that there's no alternative and they don't have any regrets about shooting you.

Finn doesn't care, because the story doesn't care and it wants to get to the epic TIE fighter flying.

Thanks for the clarification!

edited 9th May '16 2:39:10 PM by HamburgerTime

"Hey, let me take a second to mope while fascists are trying to kill me."

Like I said, would you really say that if it were the people you'd grown up with turning out to be the fascists trying to kill you?

Finn didn't have time to mourn for the troopers he shot. He was busy mourning Poe. Also, getting shot at some more.

edited 9th May '16 2:42:55 PM by TobiasDrake

Why should Finn feel any sort of guilt about defending himself?

Avoiding my question, so never mind.

I think Finn might be compartmentalizing his FO Stormtrooper days a lot, like he views FN-2187 and "Finn" as being mentally different people. How else could he go on when every memory of his past friends is tinged with the realization that a.) they're all now his enemies; and b.) he may have killed a few of them?

Why shouldn't he feel guilty for killing brainwashed slaves he only avoiding being among through luck?

Same reason he lost his nerve when a random Stormtrooper died. Because these people aren't just faceless hordes of doom to him. They're the people he's known for his entire life. They're his friends and family. His brothers in arms. His entire life. Like, most people feel bad when a terrible fate befalls a loved one, even if that person entirely deserves it. There are murderers and rapists in prison right now who get regular visits from their mommas. Most rational people don't go, "Well, those folks are bad so, y'know, f*ck 'em. Let's kill them all!"

Also, it's a bit of an exaggerated definition of self-defense given that Finn is, without question, the aggressor in his engineered escape. He may not have shot first but he was not only attempting to steal a TIE Fighter and desert the military, but he was also aiding and abetting the escape of a P.O.W. in the process. Any army in the world would have shot him dead and they would be legally within their rights to do so.

Finn's behavior is excused because he was betraying the Bad Guys for the Good Guys, but that doesn't make him the wounded party in the shootout, and the idea that he shouldn't feel a single shred of remorse for the comrades he left behind and/or killed because they're bad guys so they deserve to die would be sociopathic.

That being said: I am entirely willing to believe he did feel bad for it. He just never brought it up. He had plenty of time on his own offscreen and at no point did he ever interact with anyone who would be sympathetic to the tragic story of how he killed Stormtroopers and it's terrible. There's no opportunity for it to come up.

That's an interesting explanation. It'd be cool to see in a following movie.

@Tobias: I agree with the above. Regarding one bit, though:

This is my opinion, but I think the matter could've been solved briefly. One way could be that Finn is reluctant to fire at first, but a brief pep line from Poe: "Do you want to get out of here or think they'll talk it out?!" pushes him into action. Or another way is that Finn fires but tries for deliberate misses, but his attempts at mercy results in their TIE getting shot down, communicating to him that he needs to shoot to kill or else be killed. Neither of them would've taken very long.

edited 9th May '16 3:01:37 PM by Tuckerscreator

Finn doesn't have a lot of comrades in the First Order. The one person who treated him like a friend was Slip, the guy who was so bad at being a Stormtrooper that Finn would go out of his way to look out for him. And then he dies on Jakku, and immediately after, all the Stormtroopers except Finn slaughter an innocent village. ...Which leads to Finn deciding to defect. Which leads to Finn and Poe escaping in a TIE fighter, and being fired upon for trying to escape. That is the point where Finn starts firing back. He's defending himself and Poe.

So I don't really see why Finn should feel any sort of guilt or moral quandary for defending himself.

It would have been nice to see him open up to Rey a bit when he leaves the cantina and say he feels guilty at having to kill Stormtroopers, which could also be one of the reasons he wants to get away from the First Order. Maybe show his face sadden/grimace the first time he shoots up Stormtroopers in the TIE fighter, but then he resolves it as necessary to escaping when they shoot back.

I still think this is a nitpick myself. I didn't even notice it.

Same, I think it's a nitpick too.

I also think this type of nitpick is being blown out of proportion and being used to demonize Finn, for you know, daring to defend himself against fascists trying to kill him and his new friends.

edited 9th May '16 3:09:52 PM by higherbrainpattern

Is more that it make the black and white morality a little bit to obvious, the whole thing come as "Finn shoot bad guy freely because they are bad unlike him who is good because....he is"