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Just because they were never challenged doesn't mean they can't be wrong.
As neither of us said that, that's not the point - you accused them of refusing to be wrong as their main character trait, which due to the fact that their views were never really challenged (just overturned and defeated) is something of a stretch - Jocasta Nu nonwithstanding.
Limited in range of perception, perhaps, stubbornly refusing to accept differing ideas - not really shown. You could make a case for it being implied, but even so it's really only secondary.
edited 17th Apr '12 3:53:39 PM by KnownUnknown
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Right, okay, I'm sorry, I think we were talking about completely different things. I would, however, argue that Yoda, as the last representative of the Old Jedi Order in the OT, did have his philosophy challenged by Luke in ESB, and Luke turned out to be right.
The only thing Luke challenged was Yoda's orders, and he was only right to an extent. But when was straight ideology (I'm thinking of the scene where they met in particular), Yoda came out looking very wise.
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
I guess we'll just have to disagree then. And what do you mean by "only right to an extent?"
Mainly that Luke is only really proven right by way of not strictly being proved wrong. He saved his friends but was forced to retreat and lost a lot in the process, and given the conversation we had a week or so ago about it it's probably a bit lucky that he had enough strength of character that what Yoda and Obi-Wan most likely feared when they warned him against going (him falling or failing to face his father due to the emotional shock) did not come to pass.
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Would that it were so simple.
Right, sorry; I was under the impression it wasn't just her for some reason.
My other points still stand, though.
And to give the Jedi their due, they were close. Mace Windu's guess for Sidious's identity was Mas Amedda, that blue guy who was always following Palpatine around. Presumably, they assumed that, as Palpatine was already the most powerful man in the galaxy, that he was satisfied, and that Mas was his Evil Chancellor Man Behind the Man. Other Jedi assumed Dooku was Sidious.
Incidentally, an interesting bit about Palpatine revealed in the Visual Dictionary is that his motive was not entirely more power for himself at the expense of everyone else, but that he genuinely believed the Sith would run the galaxy better than the Republic!
The correct response would have simply been to inform the Senate that potential infiltrators were in their midst and that a simple blood test would be enough to exclude them as a suspect. Anyone who was high in Midi-chlorians gets arrested, sequestered, and interrogated. Anyone who refuses is placed under observation.
Also, it's incredibly stupid to assume Man Behind the Man when Dooku says straight away Sidious controls the Senate. The Jedi know nothing else that would suggest an evil advisor, only enough to know an evil guy is in charge. The simplest answer, with their evidence, would have simply been to suspect Palpatine first. And why would Dooku be Sidious? He's not even part of the Senate and those senators who follow him do so openly as Separatists. Were the Jedi high or something? That's why the plotting of the prequels is so damned retarded.
Also, I might believe the Well-Intentioned Extremist shtick...if it was done by literally any other character. Palpatine is so completely Ax-Crazy that it's virtually impossible to see good intentions coming from him.
edited 17th Apr '12 6:36:57 PM by CrimsonZephyr
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
That would kind of... totalitarian of the Republic to do that.
Would that it were so simple.
Real-life governments have gone to greater lengths to weed out the enemy. When the solution in this case is so simple, it seems especially stupid that no one thought of it.
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
That doesn't make it right. "Are you now or have you ever been a Force-sensitive?"
It's also something that would've probably engulfed the Senate in total discord if found out.
I can see it now: "we're being suspected and they expect us to subject to tests?" It'd be even worse if it were covert, because then it would probably be tantamount to spying for some of the more assertive races, and a betrayal of privacy and trust to many others.
It'd be the fastest way to make the war even worse, to be honest.
Sowing total discord and suspicion amongst your allies based off of the vague accusations of your enemy, who you know is attempting to break apart your nation's unity, is not the wisest response.
And plus, it's not something any of the heroes we've encountered in the series would ever be comfortable with doing - it'd be a characteristic of the Jedi being not only distrustful of the Senate, but considering themselves above them enough that they feel they can take covert action them without reservation. The Jedi Order attempts to define themselves as not being like that - with varying degrees of success, granted, but them doing something like that would be all too blatant for them.
Palpatine might, except we already know why he wouldn't want something like that done.
edited 17th Apr '12 9:02:40 PM by KnownUnknown
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Palpatine was very much considered,but ruled out just because he was too suspicious,ultimately for it to actually be him,it was The Un-Twist
Still can't help but think how none of this would've happened if Qui-Gon had lived.
Palpatine had organized a lose-lose situation for everyone involved. Once the Seperatists were sent on the run the rest of the plan was entirely to bring Anakin to the dark side. Declaring the Jedi as attempting a coup and initiating Order 66 would have been a devastating blow even without the specific sequence of events with the chase after Grievous being a distraction, Palpatine being discovered as a Sith, Windu's death and Anakin's corruption.
How well he could have held on if more Jedi Council members survived is debatable, but once the Clone Wars started the scatter Jedi and galactic instability was the lynchpin to his plan. It wasn't dependant on just THAT moment to succeed.
edited 17th Apr '12 10:07:29 PM by KJMackley
Would that it were so simple.
The Jedi could have just bombed his office instead of fighting like gentlemen when he was discovered as the Sith Lord. Or Mace Windu just killing him as soon as he was disarmed. It wasn't a lose-lose. The Jedi simply were invariably too Stupid Good to find the multiple third options at every turn. Or hell, just zerg rushing him with every Jedi present in the Temple at the time. Mace only brought three? And the B team, even?
Also, Jedi have no problem taking children away from families to be indoctrinated in their religion, yet they would have a problem with taking a blood test from the Senate?
Seriously, the PT Jedi are among the most worthless and useless protagonists ever conceived, but it does prove a point: if you can't Shoot the Dog, die and make room for those who can.
edited 17th Apr '12 10:22:25 PM by CrimsonZephyr
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
That's... harsh, dude.
What'd you just say about my hair?!
According to the EU, Mace is Better than any bomb, which would have been a mere inconvenience for Palpatine. 
Would that it were so simple.
Mace should have chosen his crew more wisely. In fact, keeping Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Yoda all on Coruscant should have been a priority. Grievous is a putz — Obi-Wan didn't need to be there. And Yoda didn't really do anything on Kashyyyk.
And if a bomb was utilized, then one big enough to blow up the entire building. Yeah, it'd be a lot of collateral damage, but knowing Palpatine, everyone in that building is likely on his payroll anyway.
edited 17th Apr '12 11:48:25 PM by CrimsonZephyr
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
What'd you just say about my hair?!
About the second part... Stuff like that is usually considered to be falling to The Dark Side.
In our heart, Mr. Ando will always be a penguin.
The problem with making the Jedi emotionless robot jerks is that it's harder to care about the so called "golden age" that Obi-Wan talks so fondly about to Luke, unless you simply ignore the prequels as discontinuity.
Was Aliroz the Confused
I always imagined the Jedi as sort of Taoist philosopher historian people, not as warriors.
If you want any of my avatars, just Pm me I'd truly appreciate any avatar of a reptile sleeping in a Nice Hat Read Elmer Kelton books
These are literal thought police. If they don't like what you're selling they will use their powers to make you go home and rethink your carer choices.
"Show us the Galaxy Warp."
You wanna buy some death sticks?
I find it really amusing that that guy's name was "Sleazebaggano."
edited 18th Apr '12 7:08:29 AM by KnownUnknown
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Anakin should've been sent to kill Grevious,if anything Anakin might've stayed if he wasn't treated the way he was.
Mace could've just kicked Palpatine out the window,he didn't need the theatrics.
@Crimson Zephyr: I'm totally with you, man. And this is exactly why I prefer the EU to the movies. Darker and Edgier does have its issues, of course, but at least it averts Stupid Good. Most of the time, anyway.
Jesus saves. Gretzky steals, he scores!
Their beliefs were never challenged, I said. OT was far beyond the point when anyone could have challenged them, since they were all dead.
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.