Split: Casting A Shadow

Well, i read the "different forms" and the first have no visible relation with darkness(It is closer to "bad powers", really) the second is elemental manipulation(and two bullet points: "dark" versions of elements and association of gravity with darkness), the third is "associated with darkness", the fourth is "evil powers" and the last is "non-existence" powers". I guess the first and the fourth(specially the first) only have any association with the other examples if you guess Darkness=Evil and the association of gravity with darkness probably deserves their own trope page.

The problem is that all of those things are called Darkness In-Universe and most actual Darkness powers are some combination of the above rather than simply one of the types. Any split is going to end up with most of the examples duplicated on every page.

edited 6th Nov '11 4:50:34 PM by shimaspawn

But the variants are too different. Ice is regularly paired with water and the two are more similar than the first Casting a Shadow variant and the second variant. The first and second variant are more close to the Wind and Lightning combination in terms of similarity than with ice and water- note: Both water and ice have different tropes, despite being more similar and regularly associated.

edited 21st Nov '11 1:37:13 PM by MagBas

Again, most uses of the trope are made out of some combination of the elements.

Clocking the thread: Let's see some movement here, or it gets locked for having no consensus to do anything.

I agree that the description of this is pretty bad. It could probably use a complete rewrite, honestly — it focuses too much on Dark Is Evil and not enough on the power itself. It's part of the Elemental Powers series, so it should be focusing on "darkness" and "shadow" as a power set, with the accouterments thereof as a sidenote, not the other way around.

Give me a bit and I'll see if I can whip up a sandbox version.

Darkness, as a power, is usually evil, but I don't think the trope is focusing too much on that anyway. There are a good number of definitions of the powers of darkness, so I think there's no problem with the trope.

Sandbox.Casting A Shadow is up for your approval.

Well, I have to admit it, it's pretty good. I sums up neatly the other description and it's very well explained.

Man, I'd love to be be able to explain things like you did with this trope.

Very nicely done.

Do we need a crowner to change the current definition for the new one, or does everybody agree to change it?

I'm fine with it, don't see any objections.

Yeah, but just you and me agreeing is not enough and only asks for someone to complain later. Let's see if someone else wants to change it.

Thread has already been clocked; if there's no objection before the clock runs out, then we'll go ahead and make the swap.

I suppose that if only three people vote and they vote for the same thing then it's consensus anyway.

I just say limit the description to super powers dealing with darkness. Get rid of all that evil crap. The Light And The Day Are Both A Like makes Dark Is Not Evil Older Than Dirt, especially since Evil Is Burning Hot in Greek Mythology's Tartarus while dark Hades isn't really all that bad, also older than dirt.

If there is some variation where disease, or gravity is counted as an element of darkness in a story then make that clear in individual examples, otherwise move on to Dark Is Edgy. That seems like a good enough reason to split them to me.

edited 5th Jan '12 5:24:15 PM by Cider

Huh? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Dark Is Evil is definitely worth mentioning when you're talking about darkness-element powers, and the proposed write up deals with Dark Is Not Evil as well, so I'm not sure what your objection is. As far as gravity/disease, Dark Is Edgy (which is currently a redirect to Casting a Shadow? Huh?), and splitting the page, I have no idea what you're getting at. Could you try to explain more clearly?

I believe the intended focus was to remove references to evil or villainy from the definition. It is about "darkness magic", value judgements are sort of irrelevant.

Well yeah, but all the Elemental Powers articles talk about the personality types usually seen by characters using those powers. I don't see why Casting a Shadow should be any different.

Dark is Edgy was about all the things associated with darkness that are not literally dark.

Evil? Evil Is Burning Hot and Light Is Not Good. Fear? Daylight Horror. Death? Go into the Light, Ghost Lights. Ect ect.

Somehow, it evolved into controlling darkness as a power, rather than darkness being described as edgy and was apparently renamed to Casting A Shadow but the way people are pot holing them suggests people are not thinking of the same trope when they do so and can you blame them?

Dark described as edgy and controlling shadows are not the same trope. One can work fine without the other. In addition. Edgy is not evil anyway. At most casting a shadow should say "Villains often have these powers in fantasy works but its hardly restricted to them." Dark is edgy should say "Remember, even if Dark Is Edgy Nice Is Not Good" and they should be split. The page is too broad for its own good right now and the two redirects are being used in a different way anyway.

The descriptions says, "it's usually restricted to evil characters" usually being the key word. I think we can swap it for now, and then focus on the problems it may have. But there is no question that it's better than the current one.

Dark Is Edgy just used to be the former title of Casting a Shadow. It was renamed via TRS about a year ago, if I recall correctly.

Do we agree to swap the descriptions for now? Though I'm not really seeing what's the problem with the new description. Dark Is Evil applies quite more times when Casting a Shadow appears than Dark Is Not Evil does, so mentioning it doesn't hurt the description at all.

The redirect thing is another matter and I don't know too much about it because I don't know how the trope was before transforming it into Casting a Shadow.

Yeah, I'm not sure what Cider is talking about. I looked at the history of Dark Is Edgy, and it's always been an Elemental Powers article. It sounds like he's confusing it for another trope entirely.

Fair enough, I have looked through the old thread now. Both titles used to be in some places but Dark Is Edgy has mostly been replaced. Let me restate then, because my position hasn't changed.

There is a big difference between "controlling darkness", "absorbing light", "creating shadows" and what not as there is between associating darkness with negative emotions, death and generally being edgy. You say Dark Is Evil is more common but I think all the tropes I've linked say otherwise. Most cultures Don't Fear the Reaper after all and there is a reason we have a Trope for Everyone Hates Hades(because historically they didn't) but the Grim Reaper and Hades would still be dark is edgy, as they were dark or live in dark areas and are associated with death, Anubis.

Now Nut, she was associated with controlling darkness, as in shadows themselves. But she was also a creator, a feeder, a protector. Hardly edgy at all. That would just be Casting A Shadow

Or for more modern terms, its how a lot of tropers still pothole when describing the dark type of Pokemon. Most have now shadow casting powers, that's usually restricted to ghosts. Instead the Dark Type is mostly categorized by being a Combat Pragmatist. Dark being edgy. For more, we have a whole nother trope about not being dark and edgy. "The Sacred Darkness". That casting a shadow is broken into so many sub categories in the description just punctuates the problem. Their are two different tropes being described here.

edited 6th Jan '12 1:21:24 PM by Cider