Sexism In Comics

I guess this conversation is really just about superhero comics. That brings up a whole 'nother thing, where "comics" just means "superheroes" to most people, and all the other works I listed on my shelf aren't even known about. A thread for another day, I guess. Basically, I'm not that interested in problems with superhero comics because I've mostly written them off except a select few. I don't "hate" them, I just don't enjoy reading them anymore.

So, pretty much, nothing more to say in this discussion. Thanks for listening though.

Not solely about superhero comics, but I would say the majority of people in the thread are superhero fans to some extent, and it's kind of easy to spot the sexism in that subgenre.

When someone notices something problematic about things they like, saying the equivalent of "don't read the things you like, then; read things I like instead" isn't always the most helpful comment.

(For example, if I say, "I don't like the overuse of psycho!Akane in Ranma One Half fanfiction", the solution isn't to give up reading Ranma fanfic for reading Tengen Toppen Gurren Lagann fanfic. It's finding better Ranma fanfic or in extremis writing my own.)

Excellent point; fans of superhero comics want to make superhero comics better, not abandon the genre. There seems to be a strong feeling among some folks who don't enjoy superhero comics that people who read superhero comics only do so because they're either immature or ignorant of alternatives.

I think it's mildly interesting that the sexualizing of superheroes, at least to the extent its done now, has only been going on for about the last 25 years or so. As a kid reading comics (and watching cartoons based on them) in the early 80's, I don't remember ever thinking that Wonder Woman or Sue Storm etc were portrayed as particularly "sexy." It's not that they weren't, necessarily, just that that wasn't an aspect that got played up. That could be my own biases talking, though. 'Course, seeing WW drawn by Mike Sekowsky or Alex Toth is a different world from seeing her drawn by Adam Hughes...

No, it really started in the mid-70s. Or maybe even the late 60s (when Vampirella was created).

It really went into overdrive in the 80s, though. Starfire was blatantly sexualized, and she was created in 1980.

edited 8th Feb '12 10:24:32 PM by KingZeal

I don't think that's the problem however. Sexualized Super heroines aren't bad you just have to do it right.
Another article about the thema: http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/09/22/starfire-catwoman-sex-superheroine/
That section for Starfire makes that pretty clear imo.

edited 9th Feb '12 2:30:38 AM by soulseller

Another angle to consider is common sense. Take Rogue AKA Anna Marie. She would love to dress like a stripper to show off her fahne body, but she knew better because anyone who touches her bare skin will get a number of things absorbed by her! Okay, nowadays she can control her power at will, but for a long time, she had to wear clothes that covered up most of her body!

I remember this one You Tube clip that showed a fight between Wonder Woman and Rogue, which was well thought out. As the clip shows, WW would beat the shinola out of Rogue, except...WW dresses like a stripper, so Rogue can easily touch her bared skin, absorb WW's knowledge and fighting skills, and boom! Game Over for Wonder Woman!

Funny enough, there's an upcoming event called Avengers Vs X Men. Someone here pointed out that Ms Marvel of The Avengers really ought to know better than to dress the way she does when going up against Rogue, considering that the two fought before, and it...didn't end well for Ms. Marvel and Rogue. Indeed, the Avengers would actually be smart to cover up as much of their skin as possible if they're going to fight against Rogue!

There's Fanservice and there's common sense, you know what I'm saying?

By that logic, there's no reason for a woman to show any amount of skin ever. Excepting characters like Dazzler, who is a celebrity—and Amora the Enchantress, who is a Femme Fatale.

edited 9th Feb '12 7:49:05 AM by KingZeal

There's certainly little logic in the sorts of combat situations that supers regularly find themselves in. Especially if invulnerability isn't one of your powers.

Let me put it this way - when's the last time you saw soldiers or riot police wearing skintight, cleavage-baring bodysuits?

Well there was this one time when a rave party ...

Anybody who's Nigh-Invulnerable could - it's the difference between Super Girl dressing in shorts and Huntress having a belly window. Another complaint is however every flier with a skirt. Talk about dumb ideas.

Technically speaking, every flier with exposed skin period. The skin cannot handle elements, or high wind speeds.

Unless, again, they're a Flying Brick.

If superheroes were being practical in their costume designs, capes wouldn't be so popular, either.

Though the two most famous caped superheroes sort of get away with it - Superman can dress however the hell he wants because he's Superman, whilst Batman's cape is a fold-out glider.

Still doesn't make sense. The amount of drag Superman would get from a cape would either turn it into a shredded mess or a lethal weapon depending on the speed. And for Batman, where freedom of movement and precision mean the difference between life and death, wearing a cape is adding a completely unpredictable variable. Contrary to what comics profess, there is NO WAY to predict how a cape will move in the middle of a battle.

Bringing this back to relevance with the thread, the basic idea is that it's not the practicality of fanservice-y costumes that's the problem. It's the shamelessness of it. Fighting in heels is one thing. Like Batman and his cape, you can make up a weak justification, like they're razor sharp or she can throw them. But why would a woman want to show off tits and ass when fighting against the most despicable villains imaginable? What makes a female think: "well, now that I've got superpowers, I need to look like a porn star"?

edited 10th Feb '12 6:09:33 AM by KingZeal

is there really any point trying to point out the obvious with Superman's cape if the character is essentially the rule of cool incarnate?

But he's not. Even as early as his first appearance, there were attempts at logically explaining his powers.

edited 10th Feb '12 6:12:46 AM by KingZeal

which were lost when you realise "we have a character who can bend steel, screw reality!". Sorry, but I've always been on Grant Morrison's side when it comes to discussions like this.

"Adults…struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it’s not real."

Which is fine for his writing. For example, All Star Superman: how does Superman keep a pet Sun-Eater? How does he invent something which gives kryptonian powers for a day? How does he create an entire universe in his garage? Who knows and who cares? It's awesome!

But, that's not how everyone writes Superman. For example, one of the things that makes Superman Birthright interesting is the way it creates a plausible explanation for Clark Kenting. Some stories after John Byrne's reboot got good mileage exploring the "tactile force field" angle of his powers. Et cetera, et cetera. In other words, not all fiction is one big pile of "who cares".

While pausible explanation are nice to have, however impractical capes usually don't carry around harmful stereotypes about gender. They're fascinating and, yes, unrealistic but it's a far cry from what impact and message the skimpy super heroine carry.

Yes, that is exactly what I said above.

The point is basically that superhero costumes are designed based around what the artists/readers want to see, not what the character would choose to wear. And lot of comic book artists and readers like seeing exposed female flesh.

well, say goodbye to Power Girls boob window◊

And, for that matter, Huntress's ab-window.

Kind of like the new Power Girl outfit. Very clean and 50s. Just out of curiosity, though, has DC got any male Flying Bricks at present that show a comparable or greater amount of skin? Apart from Martian Manhunter, I mean. Just checking.

Yeah, I have to say—that costume is bad ass. I like it!

And I'm usually a slut for Fanservice.

Hawkman.

edited 10th Feb '12 11:28:22 AM by KingZeal