Self Moderation of the On-Topic Forum

Eddie, it's not my job to monitor other people's behavior. We're members, our job is to behave ourselves. I won't flag someone for something as subjective as trolling (unless it's literally nothing but spam/angry bashing) or a derail (unless the topic has gotten completely off-topic, not just side-tracked)

If you want to elect some new moderators or modify OTC rules to be more clear-cut, I'm fine with it. But I will not moderate my fellow forum-goers as I neither have a moderation role nor any other role to order them around.

Hitting the report button is necessary to the forums quality. Remember, the site has just 10 moderators. Which brings me to my previous point.

edited 23rd Sep '11 11:45:01 AM by kyfhv

I think this is the point.

We speak out because we don't want it. And we have spoken already that we don't want it. First, we as individuals should have good behavior, and if someone's posts are hampering the discussion, then it should be pointed out to the person so that he/she can get back on track. If it's out of control, call a mod.

That's my understanding of this thread and it's a straightforward reminder to this section to be more respectful of the idea of discussion. But it almost feels like Fast Eddie and the opposition are talking about two different things.

edited 23rd Sep '11 11:44:57 AM by abstractematics

We might be, communications breakdowns are common online, after all.

I'll try to sum up what I read and how I feel about it.

What I read was that we are now supposed to self-police ourselves. I don't agree with that idea as it was 1: Not stated previous to my joining and 2: not my job.

edited 23rd Sep '11 11:58:20 AM by thatguythere47

Reporting things to mod when things are out of control is not new though. If it's not that drastic, we can just return to the topic. You agreed with that.

1: So rules changed. OMG! What, are you going to sue tv tropes?

2: It's something small you can do to make the forums better for everyone. Again, reporting is necessary to keep the forums quality top notch. In case you don't get it by now, 10 staff.

Except that it doesn't always happen, and derails of a full page are too long in this forum. Yack Fest is fine for offtopic, we really should emphasise the "on topic" part of OTC.

edited 23rd Sep '11 12:05:54 PM by CaissasDeathAngel

Thatguythere, if you don't want to be self-policing, I suggest strongly that you seek elsewhere. If it's not your job to help out the moderators (and that's all we're asking for) it is your job to police your own behavior. And that by god was already in the rules when you joined.

EDITED IN: What about my current behavior says I don't want to help? I just disagree that modding is the answer, being a good forum-goer is the only responsibility I have and I try to accomplish that to the best of my abilities. /end edited portion.

"Reporting things to mod when things are out of control is not new though. If it's not that drastic, we can just return to the topic. You agreed with that."

I'm fine with reporting things that get out of hand, but " if OTC regulars don't start to report derails and stop falling for troll bait, in short, become more self moderating and participating more in bringing in moderation help when needed..."

isn't out of hand. Derails happen, trolls troll and life moves on. Most derails can be re-railed simply by changing the subject back to the topic at hand. Most trolls are either so obvious everyone just laughs and reports, or so gray that persist on the site until they step seriously out of line *cough* deuxhero *cough* and there's nothing that can really be done about either except being a good fourm-goer.

edited 23rd Sep '11 12:21:02 PM by thatguythere47

"Derails happen"

But they're explicitly against the rules of this particular sub-forum. Nothing to stop you going to the right column if you're fine with that, but I'm not and I dare say I'm not alone. Let's keep the name of OTC actually relevant, please.

I think there has been a break in communication, particularly about our definition of derail. A conversation completely changing, or drifting way off course I'm against and would be okay with a mod stepping in if needed. A conversation drifting slightly off-topic however, does not really require a mod to step in.

I think that's my major concern. If discussion branches out into related but different conversation, I don't feel that moderators or users should clamp down on that. When the topic goes off to a completely different topic, sure, but I just don't feel that I'm competent to make the call on where that line should be drawn.

I also don't want to end up reporting something and that person ending up getting banned/suspended because of my reporting the post...

Here's what makes me think you aren't willing to help:

I've bolded the parts that make me think you're saying "I won't help out".

Now I suspect that there's a definition collision going on here: To me, saying "It's not my job to self-police" means "I'll do whatever I feel like. It's someone else's job to pick up after me." I suspect that you're using "self-police" to mean "police others".

^ What's a derail and what's acceptable topic drift is one of the guidelines we're trying to hash out in the Guidelines thread. It's proving to be ...sticky.

edited 23rd Sep '11 1:09:11 PM by Madrugada

I will very gladly spend some time looking around and moderating whenever I look into a topic to get rid of any troublemakers.

I love self moderation of forums.

I think the difference here is between:

• Treating this forum (and the forums at tvtropes in general) as if they are a paid service to which you are a customer.
• Treating this forum as a community in which everyone is expected to participate to some small degree in keeping the place in good order.

A tip: you're not a customer. You're not paying and TV Tropes is not making money; the ads barely cover the costs. It's an all-volunteer outfit on a very tight budget, which means that if you want to participate you really should be helping out, too. We don't demand much, but an expectation of some help isn't unreasonable.

I think this is much less of a "Hey, we need to moderate more" and much more of a "Hey, let's act like a better community." That means all of us (especially me) need to stop simply ignoring the threads that have spiraled out of control, and start trying to get stuff on track when we see it go off.

"To me, saying "It's not my job to self-police" means "I'll do whatever I feel like. It's someone else's job to pick up after me."

That would be where our definitions are colliding then. I behave myself and I trust others to do the same.

"^ What's a derail and what's acceptable topic drift is one of the guidelines we're trying to hash out in the Guidelines thread. It's proving to be ...sticky."

Well it is a matter of opinion. I'm just against the idea of us reporting every instance of drift. It's a lot of work for everyone involved and, to speak frankly, is impossible. Conversation drifts, as long as it isn't so far out that you can't see the original discussion I don't see why we need a mod to come tell us to get back on topic.

True.

Also, If you just have to get that one joke off of your chest, but you know it will derail the thread, you don't have to make that the only thing you say in your post: just make your joke, than say something contributing to the discussion. The discussion stays on track, and you feel emotionally fulfilled.

I think part of the problem, at least, is some topics naturally touch on so many other subjects that you might not even notice a derail until after the fact. The "2012 American Elections" thread is a prime offender in that regard. CONSTANT VIGILANCE!

Seriously, though, I think Eddie and Madrugada are probably right in that posters should be more careful about not letting threads get off topic and cleaning up after those that do. I'll be frank, though: they're deluding themselves if they think they the average user will be paying mod-level attention to this.

On that note when something is reported I am hoping there will be very prompt mod attention. Last I checked it can take quite a while for a mod to respond even if we are being vigilant and dutiful.

You cannot expect every single person in this forum to police the actions of every single other person in this forum.

I've tried mini-modding here, it doesn't work. I don't know what constitutes trolling and what doesn't. For me, when someone says that gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry, I think they're probably trolling, like 85-90% chance. But I've reported stuff like that before and been told that we don't thump for unpopular opinions. So I've stopped trying and haven't been for awhile.

Also, this:

Is just going to make problems worse. The reason that people fall for troll tactics is not because they're blind idiots, it's because after reporting them so many times and them still not being banned, you build up frustration that eventually blows out. I'm not going to name names, but there are several people active on this website at this moment that I'd call trolls, or at least, functionally indistinguishable from trolls. I've reported these people, and so have others, multiple times. Yet they're still here, and their victims are generally not.

edited 23rd Sep '11 3:35:34 PM by BlixtySlycat

Just because somebody has an opinion that you agree with, doesn't mean that that person is a troll; I'd consider half the forum trolls if i went around using logic like that.

Regarding an increase in self-moderation, I don't really have an issue with it. The only thing that I'd suggest is some sort of guidelines as to what is considered out of lie around here; I don't mind using my one judgment, but I hear doesn't sit well around here.

Some of us have been trying. Its not like there's been no attempt made to self-police. I've seen dozens of threads pulled back on-topic because someone pointed out that it had drifted off; there were moments where the threads I frequented on On-Topic were almost entirely self-policed. I've sent a few hollers off myself.

What, exactly, is the problem with On-Topic, how is it draining the wiki instead of contributing to it, and how is getting rid of it going to be beneficial?

Honestly, I don't see very many legitimate trolls here. It doesn't happen very often.

What I do see, however, are lots of derails that don't get reported because the people in the thread are often enjoying the conversation involving the derail. Sometimes one topic morphs into another, and it's a topic that people enjoy discussing.

Now I know that goes against the grain of the entire point of the OTC forum, I get that. But I feel the problem is that the type of people who post in OTC don't have any real valid alternatives for places to post and discuss. As I mentioned before, there isn't really a good medium between OTC and Yack Fest.

The reason I spend time in OTC is because, frankly, Yack Fest is kind of a shithole to me. It moves way too fast for me to keep up with, and there's never any time for any decent conversation or debate because there's a bunch of kids shitposting 24/7.

Although at the end of the day, I don't see what the problem is here. I think most people go to the Wiki and not the forums, I don't see how if someone doesn't want to post in the non-Wiki related sections of the forum, it somehow detracts from their use of the wiki. If I stopped posting on the forums it wouldn't make me browse the wiki any less.

TLDR: I think the solution would be a forum section where derails aren't against the rules, but where silliness and retardation can be kept to a minimum. I'd personally love a place like that. I wish Fast Eddie would say exactly what the problem is in the first place and why we can't just do things the way we've been doing them(unless I missed him stating it somewhere). I don't see how any crap going on here affects anything anywhere other than here.

edited 23rd Sep '11 3:38:36 PM by Barkey

I'd also like to note that On-Topic is generally fairly prompt at spinning off side-threads for interesting derails. We just moved the entirety of the Nation States thread to the RP section, all without mod intervention, and now, instead of being shut down, its a thriving forum game in the correct place. If that isn't identifying a derail, taking action, and self policing, I don't know what more we can do.

edited 23rd Sep '11 3:37:48 PM by GameChainsaw