Unintuitive name: Hanging Separately

While the page quote is a good example of the trope, the name it provides is actually a pun with lots of Black Comedy. Quote: "We must all hang together, or assuredly we will all hang separately." -Ben Franklin. The second half is referring to literally being hung; no matter how close to people are, they can't be hung in the same noose.

In this context, the trope name is awkward and unintuitive; it could be named "Executed Separately" and still have the same, odd meaning. I think a better name would be "Divided We Fall", and keep "Hanging Separately" as a redirect. "Divided We Fall" is based on a well-known phrase that encompasses the trope's meaning: if people don't work together, they'll fall apart and be easy to defeat.

Supporting a name change to Divided We Fall.

For those interested:

Looks like we should do a wick check. (I'd do it myself, but it's ridiculously late over here and I don't even know why I'm still up. Apart from troping, yes.)

edited 17th Aug '11 9:09:36 PM by Antheia

Quick google search for terms.

"hanging separately" -tvtropes.org = About 14,200 results (0.26 seconds)

"divided we fall" -tvtropes.org = About 3,160,000 results (0.34 seconds)

Supporting a change to Divided We Fall.

edited 18th Aug '11 1:29:15 AM by DoktorvonEurotrash

Okay, wick check time. I picked the first page for each letter(both ptitles and regular titles):

Ptitles

Characters.Captain SNES: The Game Masta: Correct.

ptitle6mc33q878da1: X Just X, but Warhammer40000. Probably correct.

ptitlegrrjtgfr: Probably correct.

ptitleeji7gg6t8ir5: Correct.

Normal titles

Characters.Advance Wars Role Play: X Just X.

Batgirl: Correct.

Cavalry Refusal: Correct.

Dark Sun: Correct.

Eisenhorn: X Just X.

Face–Heel Turn: Probably correct - "allies making life difficult".

Galatea In 2 D: X Just X.

Half-Breed: Probably correct - potholed from "rivalries" in a Warhammer40000 example.

Ignored Enemy: "Compare to" with no detail.

James Swallow: X Just X.

Kull: X Just X.

Left Hanging: "Unrelated to".

Malicious Slander: Correct.

Characters.Negima-CosmoEntelechia: Correct.

Obstructive Bureaucrat: Correct.

Characters.Paladin Fan Fic: X Just X.

FanFic.Queen Of All Oni: Correct.

Ragtag Bunch of Misfits: Correct.

Salamanders: X Just X.

Take Up My Sword: Probably correct - I don't know thing one about Death Note.

Ultramarines: X Just X, but again, it's Warhammer40000, so probably correct.

MostWonderfulSound.Video Game: Correct.

We ARE Struggling Together: Subtrope.

X-Man: Probably correct.

Yureka: Probably correct.

Ignoring cases X Just X and cross referals(12 wicks) leaves us with 17 wicks. Out of those, 7/41% were probably correct(and most of those are simply hyperbole if wrong) and 10/59% that were definitely correct.

I've also gone ahead and made Divided We Fall into a redirect.

edited 18th Aug '11 7:37:23 AM by BioTube

The redirect is fine; the name is an existing term but I could understand it being obscure to some folks.

It doesn't work well as a main title but it works well as a redirect IMO. (both titles really don't get the point across that this is basically a The Good Guys Have A Civil War)

Heroic Civil War?

Unless I missed something, Divided We Fall is also a pre-existing term, and a significantly more used one.

Raso: It's not used as a good guy example exclusively, and it also doesn't have to escalate to civil war.

Eh then there is a problem... This comes across as the counterpart to Enemy Civil War but for the Protag's side.

I am not sure if this needs a rename given its decent usage. I guess its inbounds are not that great for a trope that has been around for at least a year, but I am not sure about that.

The main issue I see with both Hanging Separately and Divided We Fall is that they are existing terms that refer to something much broader than what this trope description seems to describe. The parts of the trope about the rival, the mole, and the like are not clear from the title alone in my opinion. Still, from what I can tell, the examples themselves largely focus on general in-fighting so I am a bit confused.

I may just be a little slow here, but I wonder if the description might be fit for some simplifying and clarifying.

I'm supporting the rename to Divided We Fall.

I don't see any arguments that really justify a rename. It's widely enough used that a rename would be considered disruptive, so we need more than just "I think this other name is clearer". We need demonstrations of actual misuse, which we're not seeing, or serious underuse despite some clear, searchable redirects.

I say toss on another redirect or two and see how it looks a year from now.

Divided We Fall is already a redirect and we don't really need to lose a good name with bonus that fits and represents the trope well to... well... something that's already there. Under these conditions, against a rename.

Hanging Separately refers to a Benjamin Franklin quote, if I recall correctly.

Divided We Fall is more intuitive and also (part of) a pre-existing term, though, so I don't mind switching them...

edited 16th Sep '11 10:12:26 PM by USAF713

A wick check has been done and found minimal missue. A name being 'unituitive' is not enough in and of itself cause for a rename. Let the redirect do its work.

I would say the problem isn't misuse, so much as it's disuse.

Besides, Hanging Separately doesn't actually make sense on its own. You need the whole quote.

Question: what is the difference between this and We ARE Struggling Together?

This trope is aiming specifically and distinctively to the opposition on top. That trope aims at lateral opposition first, and thus invocations of that trope rely on far different plot elements and contexts.

When I read the name I thought it was going to have something to do with Lampshade Hanging, but that's probably just a case of TV Tropes Will Ruin Your Vocabulary.

Page action crowner hooked as requested, probably needs work.

The name's fine, but I really hate these tropes that begin with a long paragraph like "The Evil Overlord is about to conquer your country, and The Rival is more concerned about keeping you from getting command of the army, blah blah blah" before actually getting within hailing distance of a definition. And we have a lot of descriptions like this.

That might be you. I love pages that tell you a story rather than merely pushing a dull description which I could just go check to the Laconic (which is there for precisely that) or worse, Urban Dictionary. Agree though that the opening paragraph is unnecessarily long.

edited 22nd Oct '11 8:52:38 AM by SilentReverence