Objective? (Crowner Change (9/15/11): Ho Yay

In that it can happen objectively, but there's no way to really be sure when barring Word of God, and that it's going to be vastly misused no matter what we do, so the best thing is just to declare it subjective and try and forget about it.

Kind of like what's being done with the misuse for Crazy Awesome, for instance.

And don't. Get. Me. Started on shippers.

edited 17th Aug '11 1:57:03 PM by nrjxll

So, how am I supposed to know that a creator is teasing a homosexual relationship, overtone or whatever short of them actually just stating their intent?

That's the problem: there is no way to do so (unless you happen to have telepathic powers). It's why I'm so fed up with this trope (and all the "Yay" tropes, really) - it does objectively happen but there is no way to tell the difference between that and fans reading too much into things.

There are pretty obvious signs that it's intentional. Fans do read too much into things, but that does not mean there aren't genuine examples. For example, there's the custom of Valentine Chocolates in Japan. It's all over anime. Occasionally, you see either girls giving other girls chocolates (Hayate The Combat Butler) in a form of Even the Girls Want Her or Ho Yay for laughs when a guy gives another guy chocolates as in Fate Stay Night, where the character receiving chocolates is not amused.

It's kind of hard to deny this kind of example as it's basically the entire point of the scenes in question.

I can barely understand those two example, you're gonna have to provide more contexts

Like I said how am I supposed to know that a creator, in general, I don't need specific examples, is teasing a homosexual relationship? What exactly is the creator doing?

Scrubs has a song sung about it. It's called "Guy Love":

"Guy love
That's all it is
Guy love
He's mine, I'm his
There's nothing gay about it in our eyes."

One is married to a woman and has children, and is completely happy, the other is effeminate but otherwise also very straight. But oh my god Ho Yay. Ho Yay everywhere. That's pretty objectively intentional.

edited 17th Aug '11 3:55:29 PM by helterskelter

^^ The custom of giving Valentine's chocolates in Japan is a way of signifying either friendship or love, depending on the kind of chocolate given. In anime, it's always about love. Thus, giving someone of the same gender chocolates on Valentine's day would be Ho Yay.

Unless they're being accurate, which happens sometimes.

I honestly can't think of any examples of genuine friendship chocolates being given without any tsundere attitude behind it. Still, you might be right, but it doesn't disprove the above examples given.

edited 17th Aug '11 9:01:21 PM by Arha

I think I remember some girl who very earnestly gave Friendship chocolates to all the girls around her, completely missing the point of how they were all soaking their panties over her. I don't remember who it was though.

Fine then limit it to only deliberate examples. I'd love to cut out every last shipping edit that gushes on the main page.

Big Show and Jericho, deliberate. Laycool, couple's therapy, deliberate. Rey Mysterio and Batista, not. No matter how much fanboys want it to be.

How do we determine what examples are deliberate? I don't recognize any of the characters you cited, but is there Word of God supporting the idea of subtext there? If not, we have no way to be sure it was deliberate.

For some things, probably. But I don't think that's a fair standard to hold it to rather than instead requiring that examples give enough context to determine whether it's accurate or just wishful thinking.

There's also going to be some works where the very nature of it makes it clear its obvious.

Yuru Yuri basically runs on Les Yay and Les Yay Shipping.

Except that sometimes obvious... still actually isn't true from an "actually meant" standpoint.

I know of a work where one male character acts so genuinely awestruck, worshipful, doting/fussing, etc. towards another male character who's his superior, that if he was a female instead, there probably wouldn't even be a question that he had a crush. To the point where even people who don't usually slash-ship think there's at least something one-sided going on.

And yet during a convo I had with the editor who oversees the work, he once made a comment along the lines of "You know, I'm not sure why I keep seeing art that pairs up those two characters. I mean, I don't mind the fans getting excited about the work no matter how they do it, but it sure is odd."

Granted, I don't know how the actual writers see it (they've never given me reason to assume they're slash fans or otherwise interested in writing a gay relationship, and I'd be too embarrassed to outright ask), but still, if they meant it, they didn't tell their boss.

edited 19th Aug '11 3:25:48 AM by Jeysie

I don't really understand. Are we supposed to take ho yay moments (when they actually happen, which is rare, they are usually Played for Laughs) as if the people are anything more than Hetero Sexual Life Partners? And i've seen people listing this trope with the example that "Fangirls usually interpret them this way." Thats obviously not fit for the page, right?

That'd be Ho Yay Shipping and not this trope.

What ticks me off about Ho Yay and Les Yay is that when it's written intentionally or even by mistake, it can be easy to understand. But some Yaoi Fans and Yuri Fans believe EVERYTHING is homosexual subtext. Two characters of the same gender hugged each other to comfort each other over the Heroic Sacrifice of their best friend? Obviously gay. They fist bumped each other after beating the Big Bad...break out the Slash Fic!

OOC, as a writer, how do you write so that people won't ship everything and everyone?

You can't. The only way to prevent that is to prevent the characters interacting directly, and even then, subtext leaks through.

Embrace your shippers. At least you have an avid fanbase, even if they're reading stuff between the lines that isn't there.

Ho Yay moments Played for Laughs (when one character feels uncomfortable about the other's interactions) would be considered objective, right? But if it just two characters bro-hugging each other without any strings attached, that's Ho Yay Shipping.

edited 28th Aug '11 9:11:20 AM by chihuahua0

I guess you're right. I just actually know Yuri Fans and Yaoi Fans in real life, who keep telling me to put more Ho Yay and Les Yay in my stories. Hell, sometimes they tell me to disregard plot and character just for blatant homosexual sex scenes and I'm sick of saying "No, unless it furthers the story, I ain't doing it".

Foe yay needs some similar cleaning

That is true. I can think of plenty of examples of Ho Yay being played for laughs, both in and out of universe. It tends to have subtly different implications if it's just the writers or if it's the characters intentionally invoking it for some reason - I mean, it's still the same trope, but they're obviously at different spots on the "objectivity" scale.

For instance, Joey and Chandler from Friends and their married couple fights like taking care of their "baby" chick or Joey checking out another apartment, where clearly the joke is that the dialogue, with few exceptions, could be almost word for word about a marriage (intentional by the writers, not by the characters). Or in House, with House sarcastically "admitting" to be gay because he loves sneakers and is so close to Wilson (intentional by the character, probably with the writers making a bit of a nod to the House/Wilson fans). Or in Commodore Hustle, with James telling Jer, "[if you're sick] maybe we should stop making out" (intentional by the characters). I would classify all those as objectively "Ho Yay", but I do know there are other examples, even from those same works, where there's more ambiguous examples that some people would think were subjective / would argue that they were unintentional.

edited 28th Aug '11 1:32:53 PM by Duckay

I just want to clarify, though, that romantic moments between characters who are canonically lesbian/homosexual/bisexual does not count as Ho Yay, correct?

No, canon lesbians/gay people/bisexuals don't count.

Intentionally homoerotic behaviour between straight people (for laughs, or for whatever reason) I would argue would count, though.

I say this needs to be made YMMV, if not cut entirely. People just have a terrible habit of listing any bonding between characters of the same gender as a Ho Yay. I'm sick of it entirely.