Rename Desperately Needed: Boke And Tsukkomi Routine

I'm sorry for sounding flip and sarcastic, but so?

"It happens a lot in anime". Yeah, well, it happens a lot in other sources, as well. Laurel and Hardy. Burns and Allen. How many movies did Abbott and Costello do? Fry and Laurie've been doing things together for decades. And so on and so forth etc.

The examples should be moved to the correct trope page.

Differences between Boke and Tsukkomi Routine and Straight Man and Wise Guy:

Boke/Tsukkomi routines almost always involve a lot of reliance on verbal misunderstandings and puns; the Boke is specifically kind of dumb or has Cloudcuckoolander tendencies, while the Western-style Wise Guy is equally likely to be a clever joker; the Tsukkomi's role is always specifically to correct or punish the Boke's wacky behavior, while there's a lot more variation in the general Straight Man role in the West (for instance, in Western routines the Straight Man's job might just be to present set-ups for the Wise Guy to joke about, or to be the butt of the jokes himself, or to make snarky asides); the Tsukkomi almost always corrects the Boke with physical slapstick, usually bopping him on the head; traditionally there's often specific props involved — a fan for the Tsukkomi, a little drum for the Boke; the team usually wears special, matched costumes; in extended Boke/Tsukkomi routines the pace is usually rather frenetic compared to similar Western comedy routines, with a lot of emphasis on timing.

Boke/Tsukkomi is certainly a subset of Straight Man and Wise Guy, but it's a very specific and formulaic subtrope. I'm trying to think of a good analogy — this isn't really the best, but it's sort of like the difference between Improv Comedy and Commedia dell'Arte.

edited 5th Aug '11 9:44:26 PM by dangerwaffle

Worldmaker, I'm not even arguing about that. I simply disagree with removing all mention to the routine from the article.

So, basically, The Same But More Specific?

^ I'm just arguing about trying to keep it on the same page rather than splitting it off onto another page.

edited 5th Aug '11 9:42:10 PM by CyganAngel

The same but more specific can be perfectly valid. That's what a subtrope is. I don't understand why there's such a sudden backlash against them.

It can be valid, if it carries a valid concept behind it.

You're basically trying to add an article saying:

It's a Straight Man and Wise Guy routine, with some slight differences. Specific props are usually used, it's a bit more frenetic, slapstick is involved, and it's from a different culture."

I suppose I should change my argument though. It's not really The Same But More Specific. It's The Same But In Japan With Very Slight Differences.

No, my idea was to make it a well-used redirect. Now we're trying to see if its distinct enough to merit its own page. Please don't put words in my mouth.

x5 Even when it doesn't or can't go into slapstick there is the hand gesture where the guy does that open handed gesture (god it's hard to explain without a screen shot.) with the sports whistle sound effect signaling stop it (or even getting the Osakan phrase which can be translated into "why in the heck")

If you have seen Azumanga Daioh Osaka's intro Tomo spends the entire thing trying to get this response..... And shows that she will fly into desks after it happens (invoking a response from Yukari) The whole episode is much funnier when you get the stereotype she is going for and Osaka isn't what she wants. And when she finely does it Tomo cheers.

Seriously... Cultural specific stuff does exist really people need to get over it!

edited 5th Aug '11 10:00:13 PM by Raso

No, you were closer the first time; it's definitely not The Same In Japan But With Very Slight Differences — it's The Same But Much More Specific, in sort of the way that Princess Classic is a The Same But More Specific version of Everythings Better With Princesses: clearly a subtrope, but one that's an extremely specific variation and also comes with a lot of cultural baggage.

(Incidentally, don't take my post above as an exhaustive list of the differences — those are just the ones I could think of offhand, and I'm by no means an expert in Manzai comedy.)

Edited to add: Raso also has a very good point — Boke/Tsukkomi routines involve a lot of stock gestures and phrases that are really handy to be able to recognize if you want to understand what's going on in Japanese media.

edited 5th Aug '11 10:02:09 PM by dangerwaffle

Then I guess it was not you I was referring to. There are people here trying to do this, though, and they are the people I am arguing against.

What?

Everythings Better With Princesses refers to media's habit of sticking princesses into a work. As it says, first sentence-

Princess Classic, on the other hand, is a character archetype. It refers to a list of traits that these princesses usually carry, while noting that they are only general traits and are subject to being played with.

They definitely exist.

Existing does not qualify it for a trope page, though.

If it's used in media yes it does!

The Sub-Trope page lists Princess Classic & Everythings Better With Princesses as an example; you can look through the other examples and find one you like better. In any case, any Sub-Trope is inherently a more specific version of a larger trope.

edited 5th Aug '11 10:04:23 PM by dangerwaffle

Also, just going to note that people seem to get confused easily about which one is supposed to be which, so I guess that's a point in favor of renaming and mentioning the routine in the description since people seem kind of unclear about things.

No, it doesn't.

If it's a unique element used as a storytelling trick, then it is qualified to be listed as a trope.

If it's minor changes to a trope that already exists to introduce slight cultural differences, then it may be qualified to get a mention in the trope description, if that.

Incidentally, does anyone else here have any idea how the Straight Man and Wise Guy trope is played in other countries, countries that are not Japan and America/Britain? Just so we can be fair, after all, we should not focus on one country's variations on it.

Everything's Better With Princesses: Referring to princesses in general, and the media's habit of pushing them into shows and works.

Princess Classic: One type of princess used in the above habit. Subtrope of the above, not because of it being a variation on it but because it is one of the building blocks of said trope.

Bah, don't care enough, leaving now.

edited 5th Aug '11 10:09:52 PM by CyganAngel

The problem here is that none of the "cultural differences" that have been cited as a reason for this being its own trope are exclusive to Japan. You can find Double Acts that do all of that in comedy teams outside of that country, and thus, this "trope" (which, remember, is has been defined as "a comedy Double Act, but more formulaic", and that's all) does not exist as a trope at all, and is not specific or exclusive enough to be a Sub-Trope.

At best its a useful notes article. The examples should be moved to the proper trope page, and the page itself moved to the Useful Notes namespace.

Sure, fine. But we should have some sort of page on it, because as was mentioned, this is one of those things that you are just supposed to know as an anime watcher. Its a huge part of the standard cultural baggage in Japan. This is one of those things that tends to really confuse newer viewers, because its almost never explained in shows, why should it be? The audience is supposed to know this.

Yes, its The Same But More Specific, but again, so fucking what? Those are perfectly valid tropes, especially when Its The Same But More Specific Because Of Cultural Baggage You Probably Dont Have Because You Arent Japanese. Its an anime trope. It either needs to be a Useful Notes or a page specifically for this routine as used in Anime/Manga. It should not have non-Japanese examples on it regardless. Unless this specific form of Straight Man and Wise Guy is referenced in non-Japanese media, and you know how often that happens?

Whats with the sudden hatred on any and all subtropes that are based on cultural differences? Are we facing a sudden shortage of server space or something?

This is why we have subtropes and supertropes. I thought the rule was you had to have at least three solid examples before splitting. We have far more then that.

I'm okay with making it an example-less Useful Notes page, but I'm not going to agree to cut it or redirect it at Straight Man and Wise Guy.

edited 6th Aug '11 11:44:38 AM by Sackett

Why are we still talking about The Same But More Specific and Subtrope distinctions? This is a Useful Notes page. It's not a trope. There is no point in cutting the article, just as there is no point in keeping the examples list on Boke and Tsukkomi Routine.

If you have a Trope and a Useful Notes page and there is a question of where examples should go, the answer is obvious. The trope.

Move the examples, fix the wicks (wherein you can write the examples so that they also reference the Useful Notes page if it's appropriate), rework the description on UsefulNotes.Boke And Tsukkomi Routine to be Japan-specific, and call it a day.

edited 6th Aug '11 11:48:56 AM by Meeble

We have a hate when the description or name is much broader than the specific trope, but that's most of it.

When did someone say "cut the article"?

The trope title and much of the first few pages pretty much push that.

Also Making it a Useful Notes is pretty much one step from cutting the article... Since no one will be able to find the damn thing unless you go hunting for it. Really they need to stay Super-Trope - Sub-Trope with their respective wicks and examples (that fit.).... (and we will go around in circles again.)

edited 6th Aug '11 5:56:16 PM by Raso

The thing is, Raso, this is already supposed to be a Useful Notes page per the old TRS decision. The examples move was just never followed through on. It is not a Sub-Trope.

edited 6th Aug '11 5:56:16 PM by Meeble

Was there a crowner?... Really the examples that use this act and specifically this act like the paper fan, karate chop, common phrases like "why in the heck", the hand gestures, Osakan Dialect, refer to it by name, etc. need to have this in their trope list it is a sub-trope with it's own specific name. To plaster these examples with a general name and general trope when they are referring to something different is really bad.

Its like lumping Arena Football with the NFL. Or softball with baseball.

edited 6th Aug '11 6:59:49 PM by Raso