Rename Desperately Needed: Boke And Tsukkomi Routine

Wait, why are there two thread notifications for this on the page?

Because there are two open threads.

It's not a work though it's a style of comedy that is featured in a ton of animes from Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei, Negima, to Nichijou the Boke is often employed by The Idiot from Osaka where it originated.

Paper Fan, stereotypical phrases (often in Osakan dialect even if the person isn't from there), hand gestures, sports whistle sound effect, hammerspace etc are all associated with it

edited 5th Aug '11 10:59:20 AM by Raso

I'd be fine with making it a Useful Notes. The term comes up frequently in anime, and is very inconsistently translated, so being able to point at a page explaining what it is would be useful.

Woah, wait a minute.

Why would we rename this? Unclear?

This is what it's called.

It's a Useful Notes page on a Japanese comedy routine. Of course the name is going to be Japanese.

We already have Straight Man and Wise Guy for the more universal case. Why would we want two pages for that?

This was in TRS before and that was the decision we made. Why are we revisting this?

edited 5th Aug '11 11:25:34 AM by Sackett

It's not currently a Useful Notes page. It's in Main. not Useful Notes., and it's written as a character-type trope, not a Useful Notes information page.

Because its a trope page in addition to being a useful notes page, and because as a trope its not a strictly Japanese concept. If this was a phenomenon that only occurred in Japanese comedy, you'd be correct, but as I've already pointed out, Burns and Allen, Caesar and Coca, Abbott and Costello, Martin and Lewis, Fry and Laurie, Moore and Cooke, and a whole lot of other non-Japanese Double Act comedians argue otherwise.

In this case, what we are talking about is a comedy double act, but in Japan. And you'll excuse me for saying so, but that's not enough of a separation to be splittable.

Sure, having a separate useful notes section would be good, but as a trope, the name clearly fails. If we already have a page for the non-Japanese version, then why is this one treated as a separate trope?

edited 5th Aug '11 11:39:14 AM by Worldmaker

Because no one brought this up before?

Anyway, rework into a useful notes, problem solved.

Because this used to be the main trope for the straight man routine.

It was brought up in TRS years ago and it was agreed to split it, and make Boke and Tsukkomi Routine a Useful Notes page.

Back then I think not all Useful Notes where in their own namespace (lots of them used to be in the Main name space). So no one moved it.

That's all. Move it to Useful Notes namespace.

I just don't get the hostility coming from the very first post.

You missed that this was about a specific sub-variant of the Straight Man and Wise Guy routine, which we already have a page for. That got you all worked up to right some horrible wrong of an improper Japanese name for a universal trope.

But you were incorrect in your understanding, so lets walk it back a bit.

Unless you are going to argue we should cut anything that isn't written as a universal or American occurring trope? I won't go along with that.

edited 5th Aug '11 12:05:14 PM by Sackett

Huh... the Useful Notes page was redirecting to the Main page already.

I switched them so that the Main is pointing at the Useful Notes page.

Is that the proper format?

Anyway, I think we're done, right?

edited 5th Aug '11 12:09:08 PM by Sackett

No. The current article is not a useful notes page; it's a trope page.

And what needs to be done to change it?

I assumed it was a trope page as well, since when looking at the format it really does read like a trope. Are useful notes pages supposed to have trope-page-like examples sections?

It also seems odd that if this is a Useful Note related to the Straight Man and Wise Guy trope, that the Useful Note would have a much larger example list than the trope does.

My impression is this: if Boke and Tsukkomi Routine is not an actual trope page, and if all examples on that page are Straight Man and Wise Guy examples, then we should cut the examples from Boke and Tsukkomi Routine and move them to Straight Man and Wise Guy.

edited 5th Aug '11 12:50:24 PM by Meeble

That is precisely what needs to be done.

If we did that, and maybe reword the last sentence on Straight Man and Wise Guy to read "In Japan, a variation of this kind of act is known as a Boke and Tsukkomi Routine", we could call it a day.

edited 5th Aug '11 12:58:55 PM by Meeble

Yup.

As I pointed out this used to be the main page for the trope, and then it was decided to create Straight Man and Wise Guy and make this a Useful Notes page.

That was a year or two ago...

Guess the examples never got moved.

edited 5th Aug '11 3:19:21 PM by Sackett

Well, shouldn't be too hard. Move 'em over, make sure there aren't duplicates, and call it a day. Now, should the main page Boke And Tsukkomi Routine redirect to the Useful Notes, or Straight Man and Wise Guy?

I very very much disagree these really should just co-exist keep the Boke examples and wicks with the page and take the rest on the super trope.

Shows spend entire episodes around this trope and use this tropes name constantly (rarely translated) as well as have the stereotypical show (no western viewer would know WTF it is) show up in the generic "Flip though channels see stereotypes" thing.

As well as it really is different and cultural specific... The list of shows that use this really needs to stay as well as the wicks..

edited 5th Aug '11 8:24:10 PM by Raso

Sorry, I should have made it more clear: Don't change the wicks. If Boke and Tsukkomi Routine is a redirect for Straight Man and Wise Guy, then there would be no harm in using that for references to it. Like how Ho Yay is the main name for its trope, but Les Yay has about as many wicks.

That being said, thinking on this more, doesn't Boke and Tsukkomi Routine involve much more actual violence?

A tsukkomi can often be actually chopping the person on the head or similar, yes.

How?

The wicks used to have UsefulNotes.Boke And Tsukkomi Routine redirected to the main page.

I switched that so that the main redirects to the Useful Notes page.

While I think it's fine as Useful Notes I will note that Raso is correct that in anime they often reference the routine, and it's usually the specific Boke and Tsukkomi Routine they reference, not just a Straight Man and Wise Guy act.

A specific regional accent. Use of either a paper fan or karate chop to correct the boke. Probably some more stuff I can't think of right now. If you've seen enough anime you start to be able to pick up on it enough that you can tell when they are referencing this instead of just doing a Deadpan Snarker bit.

edited 5th Aug '11 9:08:16 PM by Sackett

I'm not sure that's enough to justify itself an entire page of its' own. Maybe a short paragraph to explain this.

"A specific variant of this has emerged in japan called the Boke and Tsukomi routine. Specific regional accents are used, and the Tsukomi will often hit the Boke..."

No, I don't even feel it's particularly important enough to really mention it. Every culture has variants of this stuff.

Anime really does call attention to boke and tsukkomi routines quite frequently. Sometimes they even outright call the characters by certain roles, such as referring to Nagisa in Clannad as a hopeless boke or remarking on Setsuna in Mahou Sensei Negima pulling off a tsukkomi despite the apparenty contradiction with her personality.

I am not looking for who calls attention to it though. I am looking for significant differences in the way they are presented, differences that are significant enough that they cannot be explained in a short paragraph.