Lets Talk About Debt... Once More, With Feeling.

The branch off from the GOP default thread. Banter about Europes debt, Americas debt, and why we need less of it. Or more of it, if you're a crazy socialist heathen. :P

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

Well, thesooner we pay down the debt, the sooner it will stop being a big political issue, and the sooner we can get back to being awesome.

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Most of this debt crises is a manufactured problem, because so many people benefit from it.

I agree.

But we can't roll it back.

Everything is based on gold right?

Well... gold isn't really worth anything. We think it is worth something, but in truth it is not.

No, the gold standard is long since abandoned in most of the world, and gold is quite useful for many different things.

Everything's based on confidence, not gold.

edited 16th Jul '11 9:40:19 AM by blueharp

And very few people have much of either, these days.

'All he needs is for somebody to throw handgrenades at him for the rest of his life...'

@Edwards: [paying down the debt is all but impossible and has been so since it was created at the founding of the nation.

The key is making it grow slower than inflation, thereby effectively reducing our overall debt.

Prior to 1933 most of the history of the US' existence was debt-free or relatively debt free.

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."

And everything was rosey and peachy...unless you were in the middle of one of the many economic downturns, of course.

Not to mention how much of the burden was on the state governments instead, and how much of the debt was masked by expansion feeding growth. Isn't much in the way of empty territory left today.

edited 16th Jul '11 10:03:39 AM by blueharp

But after 1933 was a war. AND PROFIT came from it for America!

edited 16th Jul '11 10:00:48 AM by Inhopelessguy

Post-war debts were severe in the wake of all our major wars. We grew our way out of them. Not much room to grow in the current world order.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

@Tom: Mostly because in those days one could pass a tax raise to raise revenue without one party crying like a bunch of babies about how their hedge fund made a million dollars less on the year.

Added to that, we didn't have so much of our economy tied up in using money to make money. When that house of cards topples, it does so in a big way.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

If we all moved back to the 1950s, economically shit was better. In Britain, e.g., we had a no-nonsense Labour government that had good ideas. Now? What the hell's a 'big society'? Will my baby gain 2 kg when they're born?

Didn't the 60's Labour government cause massive devaluation of the pound? I hear that Labour almost lead us to financial wreck and ruin during that period.

They did a lot of good too; many of our more enlightened social policies stem from Labours two mid-century stints in power. But Labour... well, the country tends to look to Labour when puppies are being kicked right left and centre, and to the Conservatives when we need money.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

From the default thread:

I don't think they actually are connected (there was no real budget crisis in Europe in spite of real economic harm done by the US recession, there is likewise no budget crisis in the US in spite of the 2008 US credit crunch and the 2010 European austerity crisis,) but Raven brings up a good point: If people at the onset of each thought they were connected (and hysteria over Greece is being used by US Republicans, albeit not very much, owing to the US's cultural insularity) and that fear causes them to do something harmful, then does that mean they effectively are? On consideration, I guess I agree.

You're amazingly close to the real problem, the only factor that matters is how much of the budget you waste on debt service, which isn't actually related to total debt. From the nations out of debt thread:

Or just run surplus budgets, y'know, like the last two Democratic presidents quite easily did. I imagine Obama will too, once the Bushcession is dealt with.

Gee, then what was the lump in this chart◊ eating up 20-40% of GDP prior to 1933?

Eric,

Once more, we're back to the question of how to cut back the debt. Military spending is sacrosanct, partly since it funds our competitive tech industry.

I'm a skeptical squirrel

That chart is very telling. Most interesting is that even during the height of the Cold War, when Social Security and massive military spending were raging hard, the debt was able to be reduced compared to Korean War levels.

Of course, if someone still wants to say "FDR is the first demon!" and claim that he liked government spending when he was actually quite happy to reduce it as soon as the opportunities presented themselves, no amount of actual evidence will convince that person otherwise.

^ Excuse me, but didn't Truman institute 90% income tax rates? And vetoed a income tax reduction bill? That may explain the debt reduction.

edited 16th Jul '11 11:15:02 AM by johnnyfog

I'm a skeptical squirrel

Look up the whole tax picture.

Some of it is not pretty.

& So people back then understood that's what it takes to cut debt while maintaining whatever spending was going on, how did we forget that today?

EDIT: Also, I was listening to an interview with a congressman about closing tax loopholes. It was like listening to a little kid. The interviewer said, "What about closing tax loopholes? This would not be an increase in actual taxes." The congressman said, "Uh, n-n-n-no! No tax increases whatsoever!"

edited 16th Jul '11 11:20:49 AM by ssfsx17

If they don't say that, the rest of the conservatives will nail them to the wall.

^ It's our anti-authoritarian streak. Red Dead Redemption is the best peek into the conservative viewpoint I've seen in awhile, especially toward the government. :P

^^ Now, as for our ancestors somehow being smarter: I might add that Truman's tax policy was a result of his nat'l security state. In fact, the income tax is what turned Reagan toward the GOP.

edited 16th Jul '11 11:45:06 AM by johnnyfog

I'm a skeptical squirrel

Kind of ironic that the current GOP has turned away from Regan.

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play

Especially since they still deify him.