Stock Phrases: do we want or need them?

Well, I'll contend that dialog-like phrase are inherently unclear, but if we can get a proper name for the ones that don't have them now, that's a step in the right direction.

I'd say, though, if you can't come up with a proper name for the trope being referred to with a dialog-like phrase, there is no trope there.

edited 6th Jul '11 12:11:52 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

^ That last part may be a bit extreme... though it's indeed a reason people should take title discussion more seriously in the YKTTW.

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

I don't think we should act like we are the end all, be all authority on what is and isn't a trope to the rest of the world.

I'm paraphrasing an old judges saying but "We don't create the trope, we explain them."

The original is "We don't create the laws, we enforce them." .. I suppose it can be used by cops too or anyone in law enforcement.

I think the same line of thinking applies here.

I'm not actively opposing any action, I'm just saying.

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@ Fast Eddie:

Um... yes and no. About the vagueness of trope names, that's a Take That! I barely mentioned in a hot-tip, and just a statement of the obvious - as saying that vague, unclear and misleading trope names are abundant in this wiki would be the understatement of our century.

That aside, I think I can see what's your problem with Stock Phrases now: you don't want sentences to be tropes, as examples imply their usual instances appear in the form of... mere quote by themselves. But even going by this logic, I'd say you're both right and wrong.

Your point is valid as long as we mention the aforementioned instances of the Stock Phrases, which is in my opinion where they may stop being tropes. Okay.

However, you have also to consider that most of these examples, while perhaps not tropes by themselves, often manage to trigger stock situations (or stock "scenes" if you prefer to put it that way). And by now we all know that a "stock situation" is what we call a trope.

Stock Phrases being tropes means that the stock phrase includes the stock situation it triggers, which happens most of the time anyway.

Maybe we could cut some stock phrases, but even then we should do so only within the still limited array of cases in which there's an article for both the stock phrase and the trope caused by it. On this note, an example would be Oh, Cisco!, in that it's followed - most of the time anyway - by an "Everybody Laughs" Ending. If we do so, then, after sending Oh Cisco to the Permanent Red Link Club, we should add at least a paragraph for the Oh Cisco stock phrase trope explaining how it leads to the resulting trope in the introduction of that very article.

If you managed to get through my barely understandable explanation (with the Mind Screw being entirely my fault, I know), then you might see why, even seeing Stock Phrases as the new evil that must be banished from this site, there are various valid reasons for not doing so.

On a more personal note, I've written quite a lot of Take Thats (mild ones, anyway, but still take-thats) against you, Eddie, so I think I need to clarify things a bit. I don't have anything against you at all, but I hope you might understand if many tropers like me don't exactly rejoice with the latest changes of the site. We could just deal with it and try to force a smile, but "our" part of the troper community will never ultimately be happy with them, or at least never honestly. And trust me - doing this while pining for the site's status of early 2010 is already hard enough. So, I'll defend whatever needs (and deserves) to be defended, and given this time around the subject has its reason to stay, my opinion won't change a little bit.

Anyway, my "dove of peace" speech was originally a way longer comment, but given it was easy to mistake as Flame Bait, I'll sum it up as laconically as possible - Ed, I know you're not the "totalitarian despot who forced ALL of the site's changes down our throats" that some tropers make you out to be, but the high amount of arrows pointing at you - including this one - is Not Helping Your Case. No offense: I know you're a Reasonable Authority Figure after all, it's just that you don't quite act like one. As for me? I'll be as "polite" as I am now, but I won't accept any radical change such as this without at least some criticism, backed up with a reasonable justification (just like Vyctorian did in the above comment).

Your Mileage May Vary as to what extent - if any - I've been "polite". What's for sure is that this "dove of peace" was written as it was conceived, supposed to be a symbolic dove. Please don't burn it with a lasergun.

edited 6th Jul '11 2:16:45 PM by AlexSora89

I'm from Piedmont. No relation with Piedmon, mind you!

Worth noting that this line has been added to the form for creating a new YKTTW:

Rhymes with "Protracted."

Should we rename the stock phrases index?

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

^ How would renaming it help? Heck, what would we even rename it to? It's an index of stock phrases. Calling it anything else would be inaccurate.

As someone mentioned earlier, I think the reason we have so many Stock Phrase tropes is because we have a Stock Phrases index. Maybe we should go through the index and make sure all the tropes on the page are on appropriate indices and then perhaps cut the Stock Phrases page? If an alternate index can't be found, I question how much of a trope it is.

Also, there's a matter of what to do with Other Stock Phrases. To some tropers, I could see that page existing as a challenge along the likes of "Oh, there isn't a trope for that phrase yet? I'll make one!" I feel it encourages dialogue-like tropes, which Eddie has explained he doesn't like. Also, I'm not sure of the purpose of collecting them in the first place if we don't have a page for them.

edited 6th Jul '11 8:40:21 PM by KrisMahai

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

Exactly and precisely. Otherwise, you get a page that just lists quotations, which is more or less People Say Certain Things. ...wait, how many times have we said that already?

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

Several.

Something along the lines of "Phrases Said In Certain Situations" (just shorter and better).

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

How about Tropes Named After Phrases? That's what they're supposed to be, anyway.

We don't want any tropes named after phrases and there is nothing tropish about phrases said in certain circumstances. "My mongoose is on fire!" is a phrase said in a certain circumstance.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

...Unless mongeese being on fire, itself, was a trope, then the phrase would be a perfect name, yes?

And Firefox does not recognize "mongeese". Mongooses. Mongouse.

No, it wouldn't. The title of that trope would be Fiery Mongoose, not a line of dialog.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

With this, I concur. If a stock phrase describes a trope, it should be possible to express that trope in a way that is not a line of dialogue.

While tropes themselves can be said to exist whether we catalogue them or not, the name we give them is not some almighty, holy thing. We're descriptive, and how we choose to describe something is entirely within our control unless it exists as a preexisting term. Even then, we have wiggle room — and the primary goal is to have something that a total newbie, not knowing the name of the trope, could find with a simple search.

edited 7th Jul '11 11:45:59 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

@ Discar:

YES.

@ Fast Eddie (post 162):

Aside from the fact I've never had that one before, well, if you've made that up as part of the Sarcasm Mode in which you wrote your post, well, I sadly have to say you're kinda missing the point here.

"Circumstances" is a bit vague as a word, I'll give you that. So I think that giving that word a more precise meaning would help. When we talk about "circumstances" we mean stock situations that are summed up by, appropriately, Stock Phrases. Stock phrases are tropes in that they're in symbiosis with the stock situation (or "circumstance", or "cliché situation", or "writers' item", or "trope") they either trigger or are triggered by. Unless cases of Stock Phrases having different articles for a similar - if not identical - trope related to them are redundant, with Oh, Cisco! and "Everybody Laughs" Ending being the usual example, there's not a real reason not to have Stock Phrases aside from a case of personal dislike (because, unless that "we" means a reasonable number of tropers, it just looks like a way not to say "I").

Of course, as Fighteer said, we must be able to choose a trope name that's not necessarily a line of dialog, that's kinda obvious. But still, that sends the point back to the way I explained how we might simply rename Stock Phrases with a more "tropeish" name by inverting that very same process.

Oh, and also, you've raised the issue of things being "tropeish" or not. Um, then you should explain what is and isn't a trope by giving a clear definition of the term. During the last two years, in which I've browsed the site, with more and more interest in it each and every time, I've learnt a certain meaning of the term, but I might as well as be misguided. Enlighten us all once and for all. Just remember that if your concept of the word "trope" is different from what it means to most of us tropers, than we have a way bigger problem than the existence of Stock Phrases.

I'm from Piedmont. No relation with Piedmon, mind you!

The definition is on the the Home Page.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

The Trope page also explains it in greater detail.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

The way the trope page is written currently it would still justify Stock Phrases.

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@ Vyctorian:

"Still"? You said so as if Stock Phrases are an evil that must be annihilated at all costs.

[EDIT: for those who feel annoyed by stuff such as my defense towards Stock Phrases, rejoice!]

edited 7th Jul '11 1:58:30 PM by AlexSora89

I'm from Piedmont. No relation with Piedmon, mind you!

@ Alex I think your looking for anti- SP bias where there is none, at this point, everyone who isn't in lock step with your opinion is against you even when they (and my they I mean me) are really more on your side than theirs.

But we aren't going to get anywhere by towing our lines like this is the congress floor.

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@ Vyctorian:

Yeah, sorry for that. I'm not actually looking for divergent opinions, but rather trying to figure how many tropers agree about not needing Stock Phrases in the site, because that number is unclear.

Of course, I'm not saying that my point is based on numbers now, because that would be outright stupid. However, a list of tropers for each "side" as well as their reasons for their choice would help a lot.

I'm from Piedmont. No relation with Piedmon, mind you!

Speaking for myself, I honestly don't care one way or another about stock phrases. I just want to make sure they're handled on a case-by-case basis rather then one mass cut that might take plenty of indisputable tropes with them.

edited 7th Jul '11 2:41:07 PM by nrjxll

Agreed, a mass cut would be horrid for the community and the site over all.

edited 7th Jul '11 3:50:34 PM by Vyctorian

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I also agree. A mass cut would be just plain stupid, and nothing good would come out of it.

I'm from Piedmont. No relation with Piedmon, mind you!