Misuse : Boy Meets Ghoul

Is it undead specific or is it just monsters? My gut is telling me that it's a meaningless distinction between undead and general monster/supernatural creature.

Fight smart, not fair.

I think undeadish, which could be a flexible concept, but I dunno. Would a werewolf count? Might depend on the werewolf (and the 'verse), but I could see it, maybe, if it's from a vampires-and-werewolves story. Would a xenomorph, or whatever those things from Film.Alien were called? I tend to think not. But maybe that's just me.

edit: I suspect the more obsessive-compulsive members of the audience will hate this answer, but I revel in flexibility and ambiguity. Many of my favorite works and creators defy genres or simple categorization.

edited 20th Aug '11 2:13:48 AM by Xtifr

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I think there's an actual work/porn group dedicated to such thing. Monster Girl Encyclopedia maybe?

Ah, it's The Monster Girl Encyclopedia.

edited 20th Aug '11 2:12:30 AM by Deboss

Fight smart, not fair.

I would say any Cute Monster Girl (or Cute Ghost Girl) etc. The stuff in The Monster Girl Encyclopedia basically. (need to find a good site to find them all...)

edited 20th Aug '11 2:29:47 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

I would really prefer to limit it towards undead undead, not just "monsters". For starters, this does seem to be primarily misused as romance with the undead, not monsters in general. Yes, there's a few werewolf type things, but most of the wicks seem to be vampires/ghosts.

Secondly, making it about monsters in general makes it much less clear. Where do we draw the line between this and Interspecies Romance in that case? Focusing on the undead, on the other hand, gives us much clearer parameters on what does and doesn't apply, and there's much less overlap with an existing trope (do undead even count as a separate species)?

Maybe we should have another crowner on this one - I feel like I'm not going to convince anyone here, and those advocating "monsters in general" are not going to convince me, so maybe we should just take a vote on it?

Zombies, Arachne, Slime, Dryad, Harpies, Imps, Lamia, Succubus, Living Fire anything that's generally treated as a monster, demonic, Undead and such IMO. (AKA any real entry in the encyclopedia.)

edited 20th Aug '11 2:58:25 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

Non-Human Lover Reveal? And yes, I am seeing how the suggested Trope Transplant can be the best solution.

edited 20th Aug '11 2:58:22 AM by Koveras

The misuse is generally some sort of undead. Making the trope just monsters in general makes it too much of a duplicate with Interspecies Romance.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

The problem is that in many 'verses, ghouls themselves aren't undead. The word "ghoul" itself comes from a term for a demon that feasts on the bodies of the dead, and many creators follow this. For that matter, not all zombies or even vampires are undead. That's why I was suggesting "undeadish"; monsters that are undead or strongly associated with the undead.

Of course, people instantly started trying to take that too far, so maybe it's a bad idea. I definitely think that trying to follow some external reference list of "cute monster girls" is a terrible idea (of those three words, only "monster" is even vaguely a requirement here, and it's too broad).

Anyway, maybe it's best to stick to undead for the definition and just remember that tropes are flexible. I just don't want to see people deleting actual ghouls on the grounds that those particular ghouls aren't literally undead.

---

As for the name, I'm increasingly fond of Secretly Nonhuman Lover. It focuses more on the relationship, rather than the reveal, which is closer to what this trope is actually about, I think. Alternatively, we could switch the focus of the trope to be more about the reveal (it is close already), in which case, Non-Human Lover Reveal definitely works for me.

edited 20th Aug '11 1:21:34 PM by Xtifr

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When I launched it, The Reveal was the main part of the equation, alongside the non-human bit.

Non-Human Lover Reveal is my favourite at the moment. The focus does seem to be on The Reveal.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Soundly argued, so count me as another firm vote for Non-Human Lover Reveal.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

I'm cool with that too.

I don't see why Boy Meets Ghoul can't be the Boy Meets Girl subsection of Interspecies Romance. Is that a thing with those romance tropes I'm not getting?

Fight smart, not fair.

I don't understand what you mean by "Boy Meets Girl meets Interspecies Romance" at all. Except for a couple of the bad on-page examples (like the Mass Effect stuff), I can't think of any misuse that used this trope for what you're suggesting, which I don't even think is a trope.

At any rate, anyone feel like sandboxing a description for the new Boy Meets Ghoul? As far as the trope it's supposed to be, I also support Non-Human Lover Reveal for the new name.

Maybe it's because I don't consume romance plots by choice.

Fight smart, not fair.

Neither do I, but the laconic of Boy Meets Girl is:

Is there any reason why having the boy and girl be separate species makes that a different trope?

Anyway, this is off-topic - the crowner has a pretty clear leader. Can we call it yet?

Yeah, Boy Meets Girl meets Interspecies Romance would simply be the heterosexual subset of Interspecies Romance. :)

The new crowner option has only been up for two days; usually we let these things run for three, minimum. But support does look pretty strong for a transplant.

If someone wants to take a stab at a new description to go with the old name, Sandbox.Boy Meets Ghoul is probably the place to do it.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

I thought Boy Meets Girl was a plot setup?

Fight smart, not fair.

It is - my argument is that I can't see why that plot setup changes just because the boy and girl are not the same species. It's The Same But More Specific.

We've got some pretty overwhelming support for the crowner here.

edited 21st Aug '11 9:48:43 PM by nrjxll

It changes because different species are not supposed to get it on with each other, and yet they unwittingly try in this case. It has the elements of deception, revelation, acceptance, and xenophobia/xenophilia, which are not required by the definition of the basic Boy Meets Girl.

The devil is in the details. By the same logic, one could argue that all Beginning Tropes should be lumped together into a single article because they all boil down to "There is a person who wants something and isn't getting it".

edited 21st Aug '11 10:38:19 PM by Koveras

I thought we did The Same But More Specific splits if the difference was notable. I consider Paranormal Romance to be a subgenre of Romance that includes sufficiently different tropes from normal romance genre that a specific section was devoted to it. Specifically, the Forbidden Love aspect that's pretty much inherent in it. Or would Paranormal Romance count as a subtrope of the Forbidden Love Genre? Bah, crazy romance genre and arguing from theory.

Fight smart, not fair.

I'm not talking about the actual definition, which is obviously quite different. I'm talking about what Deboss apparently thought it was or should be - Boy Meets Girl meets Interspecies Romance. That is the same but more specific. The description on the page isn't.

And I'm saying that "just" Boy Meets Girl but with different species is not a "notable" difference. The current "Non-Human Lover Reveal" definition, on the other hand, is.

edited 21st Aug '11 11:08:47 PM by nrjxll

Ah, OK, sorry. Got confused by multiple lines of argument. ^^;

Oh, Non-Human Lover Reveal definitely strikes me as a good trope. I'm not too familiar with romance focused works, and the distinction seemed good to me, so I was arguing for it.

Fight smart, not fair.

A work doesn't have to be romance-focused for any of these tropes to come into play. Romance plays at least a minor part in many works. Boy Meets Girl can be the start of an exciting adventure, rather than a romance, as long as the plot is in there somewhere. The second part, boy loses girl, can involve abductions by terrorists or aliens, and the girl may end up functioning as little more than a MacGuffin while the hero fights through the hordes of mooks, but it's still the same trope.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.