Race- Privilege, Relations, Racism, etc.

Part of me thinks it's due to how comparatively obscure apartheid is in the popular imagination of the West. When we think apartheid we think of the basic concept, of Mandela's imprisonment and later forgiveness of his jailer, of the suppression of a handful of riots. Some might remember the Australian cricket team refusing to play there.

The mind of society doesn't think of the Bantustans, the aftermath of systematic denial of opportunity (hell, they don't even bother acknowledging it when it's at their doorsteps), the lasting political legacy of apartheid's advocates in the form of the AWB and other like-minded groups of people. So, goes society, "if we only know this little, how much more can they possibly know"? The American South/conservatives is trying to downplay segregation if not trying to claim it never happened or that "they deserved it" somehow. They too have a vested interest in this.

So when a new game (again, this is one of the new fronts in the culture wars, because anything that can send a political message pretty much is now) comes out touting some sort of "mechanical apartheid" in the game world and going as far as to trademark it without giving you a good, in-depth look as to why the term apartheid got appended to it, people get confused. People start thinking that maybe they're throwing words around without caring about their meanings.

And enter Twitter. Twitter is... well, I can't dance around it. It's now one of the most popular social media networks where horrible people congregate to be horrible people. Call it an "op" or regular concern trolling, and watch the "normies" down it hook, line and sinker. Then they get to say "see, they're impeding creators' artistic freedoms! Defend free speech with us!" after sending some other developer death threats for giving a female character breasts that won't break their spine.

The internet, ladies and gentlemen.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot

Not games, other media, but Elder Scrolls and Dragon Age deal with factions that essentially enslave or give no rights to other races.

edited 3rd Aug '16 12:38:36 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges

What I saw of that in Dragon Age was a bit lite, though.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Skyrim belongs to the Nords!

We intend to prove the superiority of Mer over Man!

khajiit are not skooma dealers!

Plenty of allegories to supremacist and Apartheid states in TES series, but a little less in your face than DE:HR, but still the uses of similar themes in fiction is not unheard off.

Inter arma enim silent leges

As far as I can tell, the uproar seems to essentially be "how DARE a game company reference current social issues in their game about future social issues!"

Which is incredibly stupid.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Nnno? The uproar is about a slogan that is intended to fight back against the casual murder of black people by police officers...being thoughtlessly appropriated to sell a game about robots and cyborgs. That phrase is symbolic of centuries of racial violence and suffering. It's not a marketing gimmick for a bunch of stuffed shirts to shoehorn into their game so they can go "ooh, look how culturally relevant and socially conscious we are!"

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."

I doubt it's been done thoughtlessly. That's an unfair assumption to make. And if you don't want your movement being referenced in commercial works of art, you might as well not exist.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

The game is not about robots and cyborgs and to claim it is such is as shallow as your acusing the devs of being.

It is about Transhumanisim and Bigitory, and such a thing VASTLY plays into the themes of the later, especialy with the parelels to the actual RL problem that have been present since the first game before the movment was a thing....

Something like this does not direspect current issues if done right, it instead highlights them, makes them relatable, and these devs have shown before that they are capable of tact.

edited 4th Aug '16 1:25:31 AM by Imca

Also, ain't nothing wrong about robots and cyborgs as an exploration of the topic. The word robot means slave, and sapient robots being treated like slaves is a classic theme. The questioning of the humanity of augmented people, and their place in society, by themselves as much as others, is also a classic theme.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

A society with transhumand would likely have issues with discrimination and bigotry, similar to Real Life mixed race societies. So discussing such topics in a fictionverse with transhumans seems appropriate. Now, depending on how skilled the game-makers were the game may be either silly superficial and offensive or insightful.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Not really seeing the difference here, to be honest.

Deus Ex has always explored themes of bigotry and discrimination based on superficial qualities (the color of one's skin, whether one's body is all-natural or has artificial bits). The parallels with the civil rights movement are almost certainly deliberate, and referencing Black Lives Matter is a natural progression of that. I don't see how simply using a BLM-style slogan is inherently disrespectful — if the "Aug Lives Matter" people were portrayed as unsympathetic jerks, or shrill whiners, then that'd certainly be cause for legitimate complaint. But just using the slogan? If it's used as part of a sympathetic movement with real cause for complaint, in-universe? How is that a bad thing for the real-life BLM movement?

To put things another way, would you consider it disrespectful if an X-Men work (another franchise with a long history of civil rights parallels) had a "mutant lives matter" banner? In your opinion, is there any context in which a fictional work can legitimately use some sort of "X lives matter" slogan in an in-universe manner without specifically referring to the actual real-life BLM movement?

Is your problem "Deus Ex is uses it badly" or just "Deus Ex is using it"?

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

I suspect that for some people the difference with a game compared to the x-men is that not everyone regards games as legitimate art. For some people a game trying to make social or political commentary is inherently insulting because games are "stupid kid's toys".

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Well that's their problem and their problem alone.

It's one thing to make a spectacle. It's another to make a difference.

I would have put it less politely.

You'd think such people would welcome games exploring more mature themes since that would mean they're not just mindless murder fests.

They see the sign and think "Crap, this murderfestsimulator now targets us!"

Too bad for them, in Deus Ex they are the ones fighting against the establishment trying to oppress them.

Inter arma enim silent leges

Why let actual facts get in the way of a good rant about how persecuted you are?

They already lap up everything from the real world Picus News (The Times is probably the only thing in the entire News Corp portfolio that possesses something resembling the ethics they claim to care about) uncritically (Especially Heat Street^* Yes, a Murdoch rag. Even if there were tits all over it, it wouldn't redeem it. And what's with right wing news "outlets" and fire motifs? articles written by another reason I'm embarrassed to be Malaysian) despite an entire level dedicated to pointing out how they lie to manipulate the public, what are the odds of them learning an aesop from any stories that aren't "How Milo defeated the Big Bad Tumblrina"?

Granted, lapping up lies from a propaganda machine while claiming to be above being swayed by the lies of the mainstream media is a common trait among "woke" idiots.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot

I thought "woke" usually referred to people among the left.

There's this copypasta going about how all the voting members of a highly Democratic family are all voting for Trump for some reason. Or "lifelong liberals" who think that the cause has "gone too far" and are now voting for Trump. This is a reference to them.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot

So. Question. Do the Deus Ex games have good representation of POC, specifically, Black individuals?

Cause similar to the x-men issues, if they are gonna parallel race issues ,the least they can do is have good race representation.

Read my stories!

I've only played Human Revolution and the answer would be.... Eh? Three black female characters come to mind, one is your street informant who digs through the trash and has a.... Less than kosher voice. The other is a cop friend of yours who is doing undercover work a sex worker. The latter is cool though perhaps a bit unfortunate that's the sort of role you give the black cop. Another was a executive in the company you work in who you have the opportunity to rescue and her husband will allow you to get discounts from some black market gangs as a reward.

Oh right I guess the other black people are street thugs.

There are plenty of East Asians in the game though that's sort of par for the course since part of the game takes place in.. It's been a while, I forget, maybe it was Hong Kong?

Other than that the game is about as white as every other piece of media.

Anyhow, I was already immediately uncomfortable with the 'Aug Lives Matter" partly due to the whole "You're not that great at representation and diversity stuff to begin with, are you sure this is a path you want to be taking before fixing that?"

Ultimately we won't know how it's handled until we see it but I'm going, to, like, assume this is the worst thing ever. They're trying to be relevant, backlash may occur, I'm uncomfortable but can't fully articulate why.

edited 4th Aug '16 12:31:08 PM by MousaThe14

The Blog The Art

Deus Ex, the first didn't have much for mainly black characters but a lot of Asians thanks to China becoming the major super power, but the first NSA "terrorist" we meet is a black man well versed in how the government and corporations were responsible for forcing people to become either customers or corporate workers and you're supposed to take him alive and everyone appreciates you not using violence as the first option. Most enemies are masked mooks so you don't get to know the skin colour of the people you're killing if you don't go the pacifist/Non Lethal method.

The HR, doesn't much black characters, it has two major Latino ones even though you can talk them out of being hostile to Augs, the almost half of the game is in China and it is pretty neutral in regards the treatment of the Chinese population, you have one Corrupt Corporate Executive but mostly even the criminal gangs were avoided the Chaotic Evil stereotypes. And the NPC gang members aren't exactly mainly of one ethnicity or another, it tends to be a bit distributed but mostly white looking guys.

TL;DR it doesn't mainly feature a very diverse cast but also doesn't shit in any other minorities.

Most of the cinematic trailers for the Human Revolution expansions don't really show in the game, so I guess the chances of you seeing an in-game protest of "Aug lives matter" is very low, but you will see how Aug NP Cs are being discriminated or being mistreated by the powers that be.

Inter arma enim silent leges

I think I know why you're feeling uncomfortable: Black Lives Matter is the latest stage in a long-running form of discrimination (U.S. racism against people with "black" skin) that goes back centuries. Aug Lives Matter (assuming it's an in-universe slogan and not just a cheap advertising gimmick) is born from a problem that's only a few decades old in-universe at most. While the latter phrase is clearly intended to invoke feelings about the former phrase, the two are not really comparable in terms of the depth and history of the problem.

That's the problem with treating "Black Lives Matter" like it's some kind of current trend. Maaaaaybe you can stretch things and call it that, but the problems it was created to address run very deep and are very complex. Alluding to it without any indication of the same depth and complexity (and with quite a few indicators that there won't be such) isn't going to go over well.

And of course, if all it is just an ad gimmick, well...someone needs to fire their marketing agent/agency.

edited 4th Aug '16 1:02:43 PM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)