(Professional) Porn and Misoginy

tl;dr I was wrong and I was jumping to conclusions on a lot of things.

edited 14th Apr '11 7:55:18 AM by Medabee

Why is it that some of the people who would critocize any other medium for being misoginyst and racist are lenient towards porn?

This seems rather like a Strawman argument to me. Who exactly does this? Is there any source?

I think he may also be referring to the recent hooplah over that Capture the Babe mode in Duke Nukem, where some feminists decried it as misogynstic and demeaning. Whereas porn ostensibly catches little flak.

I think; I'm so sleep-deprived it ain't funny right now.

edited 10th Apr '11 1:45:22 PM by MarkVonLewis

Well, I've seen acknowledgement that porn doesn't have be by definition overtly sexist. That might be what's talked about here. Usually what comes along with that is the indication that it is, but that's an indictment on society at large.

Don't feminists moan about porn all the time?

It depends on which feminists you're talking about, really. I've usually heard that from the more militant man-hater types (their beliefs often tend to invoke All Women Are Prudes, oddly enough); there's other groups of feminists that see female-oriented porn as a kind of empowerment.

I've noticed more underlying racist attitudes in porn than underlying misogynistic attitudes.

@OP: Likely because it's a losing battle. Most porn-viewers understand that it is an un-realistic, sexist (toward both genders) portrayal of human sexuality. That doesn't stop them from using it for its intended purpose, which is simply to get off.

edited 10th Apr '11 2:05:26 PM by Meeble

Ask first why BDSM porn is not considered evil, and then you will learn why normal porn is not (usually) considered misogynistic.

"I've usually heard that from the more militant man-hater types (their beliefs often tend to invoke All Women Are Prudes, oddly enough); there's other groups of feminists that see female-oriented porn as a kind of empowerment."

No. This is a complete misrepresentation. [1]

Porn? [2].

When people complain about porn being inherently misogynistic, I always wonder why gay porn is conveniently left out.

Um, no. These people exist.

@Tony Muhplaah,, maybe it is a strawman? I don't know, it seems that people are more lenient on porn than any other forms of media. If this is in my mind than I am wrong. There are people who believe that porn can be criticized for those things just like other forms of media..

@Mark Von Lewis I have no idea what the Duke Nukem thing is about.

@Karmakin Yes, porn in itself does not have to be sexist is what I am getting at. The default for what porn is considered to be ( arguably ) is, in my humble opinion.

@MRDA 1981, the language in that seems to show that you don't even understand feminism yet you're already dismissing it. There are debates in feminism about it, there is definitely no single "feminist" view on porn, at least as it now.

@ lee4hmz This seems to imply that you'd have to be an extremist to see any misogyny or sexism in porn. That statement seems to be a bit of a strawman. There are feminists who are pro sex, not anti-male at all, but still feel that porn objectifies women.

@emeriin, I do not believe that all porn is straight, nor do I believe porn is inherently misogynistic. I forgot to say this.I was referring to straight porn. But you have a point.

@ Penguin 4 Senate doesn't seem like Love Happiness was saying that they didn't exist, but that it wasn't as black and white as lee4hmz, implied.

edited 10th Apr '11 2:32:42 PM by Medabee

The way our culture constructs straight sex is misogynistic and the film industry is misogynistic. Mainstream porn is misogyny squared. The good news is that it doesn't have to be.

Conveniently, feminists tend to forget that men even exist in porn.

The way our culture constructs straight sex is misandristic and the film industry is misandristic. Mainstream porn is misandristic squared. The good news is that it doesn't have to be. Men don't necessarily have to worry about being a foot long and muscular enough to be unable to reach their face.

To be totally honest, both genders are heavily misrepresented in any given medium and its quite bothersome, but it's definitely not one sided.

Gay porn, hoorah! Gotta love that hot sexy yaoi and whatcha-mah-call-it muscular men branch off?

edited 10th Apr '11 2:36:43 PM by Usht

Medabee: Oh, I forgot about the objectification argument. I was remembering something I'd read long ago from someone claiming that all sex is rape, and I got my wires crossed.

"Um, no. These people exist."

Sure, feminist man-haters exist. A lot of times because incest, rape or the like. I was just saying it's a misconception to equate feminist arguments against porn with anti-sex man-hating.

Can't a misandrist be misandrist without the sexual abuse? That just sounds like alibing.

edited 10th Apr '11 2:42:02 PM by MRDA1981

Commando Dude and Usht:

Do you two actually want to talk about parallel misogyny and misandry, or are you just reflexively contradicting me?

Eh sure, why not? There are plenty of straight men in porn who have to take it up the butt for pay, just like there are a bunch of fake lesbians in porn. You might be surprised at this, but the porn industry is pretty equal opportunity in offending and using everyone.

It may be worth trying to work out some criteria for calling something exploitation. My rule of thumb is: if you know in advance upon taking the job that you may be called upon to perform this task OR you have the free choice not to do it without suffering negative repercussions, and you are fairly compensated for doing it, and reasonable safety precautions are taken to prevent the task from injuring you...then you are not being exploited.

I don't know what the statistics are for the exploitation of male vs. female performers in the mainstream porn industry, going by this definition. I've a feeling the male performers have it better simply because there are fewer of them.

According to Stiffed, men are interchangeable in straight porn, and thus, have more stressful work conditions and are paid less. That was written in the nineties, though, so maybe things have changed. Probably not.

I kept meaning to read Stiffed and never got around to it. Is it any good?

More on-topic, if male porn actors are being underpaid, exploited, or otherwise maltreated (and I'm not saying they're not), why is there little outcry from men's rights groups? Are they just unaware of it? Do they not think to care as long as the end product gets them off? Do they think it's all right as long as all the performers are maltreated?

edited 10th Apr '11 3:23:33 PM by Karalora

@Usht I think there is a lot more misogyny in society than misandry, and that masculinity is celebrated by everyone by default (as it is the default), where as femininity is looked down upon by men and boys.

This is the Theme Park Version, but yes, there could be issues for both men and women in porn.

@Karalora I don't think porn is exploitation for the actors (in every case). I was referring to the roles and themes that a shown in (straight) porn. So yes, there are probably issues for men in the porn industry that I don't know of, but I am being critical of what's on screen. Yes, the depictions of men in porn are not good as well and I did not think about this enough when asking these questions.

EDIT: So it is confirmed. Men have more problems in porn off screen. Could this be the result of Men Are Generic, Women Are Special and Men Are the Expendable Gender ? This is unfortunate, but it's supply and demand, I guess.

edited 10th Apr '11 3:22:28 PM by Medabee