Description far too specific : The Political Officer

Right now the trope is completely written around Soviets but there are many other sources of this in media like that lady (Cant remember her name) from Mobile Suit Gundam MSIGLOO (Based off Nazis) Romulan's Tal Shiar officer on each ship and so on.

(Puts on Trekkie Geek hat)

Tal Shiar don't have an officer on each ship. A Tal Shiar officer on a ship is mentioned as being extraordinary.

(removes Trekkie hat)

Well, a lot of the non-Soviet examples involve a Fantasy Counterpart Culture to the U.S.S.R., or at the very least were inspired by the Soviet version (the Tal Shiar certainly were). I don't really see the problem here.

edited 3rd Mar '11 9:55:10 PM by nrjxll

Yes, but a lot of them don't.

The Nazis had something similar, though I'm less clear on the institutional/organizational aspects of it compared to the comparatively straightforward Communist system. There was a political officer on Das Boot, IIRC.

Yes, IIRC it was because the Navy had resisted a lot of Nazi policies so an officer was put on board.

Almost all of these types are drawn from the Communists as a source.

edited 4th Mar '11 9:42:32 PM by Sackett

True enough, but the trope description only talks about that one specific variety of Russian political officer, not about its derivatives or variations. I'd add in a paragraph somewhere about how the idea of the political officer comes from the Soviets, but is not restricted to that form.

One officer in Das Boot is supposed to be a young, enthusiastic Nazi, but at least in the film I don't think he's actually a political officer in a formal sense.

Certainly the Soviet version is best known, and as they are generally referred to as commissars, is there a problem with this being called "The Commissar"? That would also avoid confusion with the kind of "political officer" the British used to have in parts of the Empire, who were basically diplomats whose job was to liase with local rulers, rather than to ensure the military was ideologically correct.

edited 13th May '11 3:02:48 AM by captainbrass2

For me, the commissar is the guy responsible for executing the troublemakers / "cowards" via Boom, Headshot!. Don't know if it's a universal definition though.

I think the name's fine, the description could be broadened a little, and redirects could be very useful.

Give the trope a more generic introduction paragraph about the role of political officers in all types of fictional settings, but keep the information about the origin of the trope Real Life totalitarian regimes like the Soviets.

Also, this line got my attention:

"Note that this is a Western stereotype. In Soviet fiction, the political officers often were stern but just, inspiring and actually caring, and performed major feats of heroism to inspire similar heroics in soldiers."

No doubt that Soviet fiction portrays the political officer different from Western fiction, and that is worth noting, but I think we should be cautious about making statements that look like a judgement as to which portrayals are closest to reality. Besides, Soviet authors had to get their work cleared by the civilian version of political officers before they could be published, so you can hardly except the Soviet censors to approve a negative depiction of the The Party.

edited 11th Sep '11 12:55:12 PM by Auxdarastrix

True, but that sentence doesn't actually say which one is closer to reality - it just notes that Soviet literature depicted political officers in an entirely more positive light then this trope. Doesn't mean they were right, doesn't mean the trope is right.

"stereotype" isn't exactly a word free of connotation, though. At the risk of engaging in personal myopia, I can't think of any time the term was used in a positive or even neutral way.

Yeah, "stereotype" might technically not have a negative denotation but its connotations are always fairly negative, in my experience.

edited 11th Sep '11 6:02:05 PM by joeyjojojuniorshabadoo

I get that it's implying the "Western version" as being untrue. However, it does not necessarily follow from that that the Soviet version is true.

When given two options, the one that isn't portrayed in a negative light will tend to be considered "better" or more truthful than the other. Human nature, for better or worse.

As for how to change that, I believe "Western depiction" would be less subject to the implication that the Western one is worse.

edited 11th Sep '11 7:21:51 PM by Nohbody

I just want to say that I can't believe the Loyalty Officer Paranoia was not on there, I had to add it just now.

I don't think it actually needs all the detail about who does or doesn't use the trope, or what people who don't use it might use instead. A simple "rarely appears in this form in soviet fiction" should do it. We're describing tropes, not documenting real life.

It good that the description mentions the historic Real Life origin of the trope, but I agree, it is far to restrictive. The first paragraph should be the last.

My suggestion, combine the first and the second paragraph and put them as additional information at the end (of the description) and but the third paragraph in the Real Life section. And of course, write an actual description, detailing the function of this trope in fiction.

As Raso said, this occurs in speculative fiction, where the actual Soviet Union has no relevance (except as the author's probable inspiration). Furthermore, there were Political Officers around before the SU was born—the Tsar had his own, I believe. I think we need an intro that focuses on the trope itself. Something like:

A representative of a repressive or totalitarian government whose job it is to keep an eye on other officials and watch for politically incorrect behavior or thought crimes. The most common variant is an actual officer in the military, which is the origin of the term, but it may also apply to a member of a diplomatic team or other groups of officials. The Political Officer usually doubles as a member of the Secret Police or Culture Police. His identity may be known or unknown, but everyone will usually be sure that someone is serving this role. His existence usually contributes to the overall paranoia of the work.

This trope rarely occurs in works from countries which actually had officials like this (like the former Soviet Union), for obvious reasons.

edited 26th Sep '11 11:59:05 AM by Xtifr

Looks like you are on the right track.

Is there anything that needs to be added or changed? Or can I cut and paste the above and call this one done?

I think that's too narrow.

I made a few changes to the page.

I think the problem may be that this article is trying to describe the term, not the trope. There seem to be three things described: the villainous trope I described above, a more general version, possibly found in mil-fic, and the heroic Soviet version.

The problem may be the name. There's a reason we have Drill Sergeant Nasty, but not Drill Sergeant—the latter isn't a trope. And I'm not sure The Political Officer is either.

What I described above is definitely a trope. The heroic Soviet version may be a trope, but I doubt we have examples. The generic job description the article spends so much time on is not a trope. It might be Useful Notes, but I'm not sure how useful it is.

Edit: phone ate my post.

edited 1st Oct '11 9:30:35 AM by Xtifr