What is Justice?

I've been thinking about it for a while. Part of me is saying that there's no true justice; it's not objective. But at the same time, certain things like genocide and torturing innocents do seem to be objectively unjust.

I think that Tv Tropes is good for this sort of thing. Please, Tropers, help me out. What is justice?

Emperor Justinian suggested, "Justice is the constant and perpetual will to render to each his due." I think that's a reasonably good summary of justice at its most basic.

The liberal view of justice, which might be defined as "justice as fairness", was summarised by John Rawls, who believed that the best way to determine what would be just or fair is to imagine what principles individuals would agree to if they were denied knowledge about certain facts about themselves. This involves two concepts; the original position and the veil of ignorance. Basically, if people are placed under a "veil of ignorance" and consequently become unaware of their social status, they will inevitably choose to protect to least well off in order to ensure their own position when the veil of ignorance is lifted.

There's also the communitarian view of justice, which is mostly favoured by conservatives and socialists. Basically, it proposes that morality is fundamentally contextual, so justice must b a product of social interactions (there's much more to it than that, of course, but I think that's the basic idea).

Of course, there's also the debate over whether justice should primarily address what is "right" or what is "good".

edited 17th Jan '11 12:02:33 PM by TheGloomer

A social construct based on the collective material concerns of the time it was formulated in.

^ add "usually reinvented and reinterpreted to coddle those made emotionally uncomfortable with the realistic needs of a law enforcement system" and I think you've got it Tsukubus.

Justice!

Anyway, I'd call justice "an organised series of reprisals against an individual or group for breaking laws".

I generally hear the term used in contexts where we could just as easily say "vengeance." (Not that I'm deriding it as a convenient way of organizing the criminal justice system.)

Speaking from a legal perspective rather than a political one, "just deserts" are obviously important to any discussion on justice.

• Justice as "What Is Right/Fair": Y'know what, for once I will go ahead and link you to what Eliezer Yudkowsky has to say on the matter. Then we can discuss whether his insights are pertinent or not.

• Justice as "the Judiciary system and how it should work". Nietzsche has a lot to say about that in Genealogy of Morals.

What, no Code Geass reference?

Raw, I am disappoint.

Stay on topic.

I think that true justice is total equality. In that case, justice is nigh impossible.

Could justice be fairness? When one person is born smarter or stronger or more beautiful than others, is that unfair? Is it unjust? Or is it society's conception of superiority that is unjust? If justice is fairness, and fairness is equality, is meritocracy unjust, as some are born with greater intellects?

edited 18th Jan '11 5:35:32 AM by Grain

Oh fine

Everyone, use this song as your soundtrack when reading the thread. Gode Geass is such a World of Ham even the MUSIC is hammy!

Could justice be fairness? When one person is born smarter or stronger or more beautiful than others, is that unfair? Is it unjust? Or is it society's conception of superiority that is unjust? If justice is fairness, and fairness is equality, is meritocracy unjust, as some are born with greater intellects?

Rawls, who is obviously strongly associated with the idea of justice-as-fairness, seemed to think that justice was basically a set of agreed principles upon which society was structured and social goods would be distributed. I'm really not certain on what he had to say about how justice should relate to equality; I haven't read enough on that.

edited 18th Jan '11 7:20:02 AM by TheGloomer

Justice is the state's approximation at enforcing moral values. I say approximation because no matter what your moral code happens to be, it will not be reflected perfectly in any penal code, past present or future.

My subjective POV of justice is this: Doing what's right because it's the right thing to do, and making sure evil bastards get the piss beaten out of them.

I do my best to consider things like justice from a technical perspective, if you will, because, like politics, introducing issues of morality inevitably makes it a mess.

A myth.

Thank you for your bright and optimistic contribution. Apart from sounding sophisticatedly cool, is there any justification for such a harsh judgment?

Isn't justice entirelu about morality? What is morality but justice?

It's built purely on what people think the world should be like, rather than what is. Therefore, myth or fiction is an accurate description.

Justice is a state where crime has been balanced against (hence why it is symbolized by scales). Its goal is to achieve fairness.

This can be done by:

• Forgiveness (the harmed party dismisses it, thus no longer cares and thus has lost "nothing").
• Punishment (the party which caused harm suffers equally to the party they harmed).
• Payment (the party which caused harm rights their wrong by supplying adequate payment to the victim).

Of these, punishment is the least desirable, for it creates more suffering; payment can create Karma Houdini effect (a wealthy man pay their way out of crime), and thus is also somewhat undesirable.

Thus, forgiveness is the best option. However, it only reduces crime if the criminal also apologizes; however apology is not needed for forgiveness.

There is more to this, I'm certain, but I gave it a shot.

Justice?

edited 20th Jan '11 12:00:00 PM by Pykrete

I kinda wondered if that would happen.

I think the basic principles have been addressed, though I think the matter of what is "fair" is probably a bit subjective depending on the person and society making the judgment. "Eye for an eye" is probably the closest to any sort of objective justice, though I couldn't say that it's necessarily what's best for society. Especially considering many people can sort of learn or be taught to feel regret for their crimes and eventually make amends.

I think justice extends past crime and punishment into "good deeds and rewards". Less objective but possibly part of nature/nurture humans tend to "feel good", i.e. brain releases endorphins for altruistic actions. So, I think it could be said there's something of a "natural justice," for people, though I doubt it's something that's constant from person to person.

It's built purely on what people think the world should be like, rather than what is. Therefore, myth or fiction is an accurate description.

Err... nope. No it isn't. Law is an exhortative sort of text, while fiction is a narrative kind of text. There is a clear difference between fantasizing about stuff (writing and reading and performing fiction, playing BDSM... a form of escapism), wishing the stuff to actually happen (anything from an "I Want" Song to a bloodthirsty military maniac saying "I wish this world was peaceful (no you don't, you enjoy this shit, admit it) but conflict is impossible to avoid (a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy if I ever saw one), actually saying how stuff should be (preaching, vague political programs), doing that AND suggesting actual ways to reach that state that is both declared desirable and desired (activism, concrete political programs) and laying out the way stuff is supposed to happen, OR ELSE... (lawmaking, government, direction and leadership in general) I hope I have cleared your confusion.

edited 20th Jan '11 2:38:16 PM by RawPower

Isn't justice entirelu about morality? What is morality but justice?

Simone de Beauvoir said that oppression tries to justify itself by its utility. This makes me think that law (the "justice" system) isn't about what's right; it's about keeping the system oiled. If you consider justice to be law, then morality is not necessary.

edited 20th Jan '11 2:35:35 PM by Grain

Law isn't the same as justice, I guess.

Would justice exist in a world with no sentient life?