Game of Thrones [Potential Book Spoilers]

Seriously, they turned from a guy who appears to be an evil king out of pragmatism and honor into someone who practically embodies the trope. Stannis is awesome but he is not a villain but an anti hero.

Pretty much this.

TV!Stannis is Firelord Ozai.

edited 27th Jul '14 1:25:08 AM by LogoP

Did he say that Loras' brothers are going to be important in themselves? I rather assumed they'd wind up being important in that they stop Loras being the heir to Highgarden, freeing him up to join the Kingsguard.

There are ways around that, though. (A) Don't have Loras join the Kingsguard (apart from being an unwelcome influence on Tommen, that particular role hasn't had much effect so far compared to him being any other prominent knight), or (B) "Hi, I'm Mace's nephew Willas Tyrell, and I now run Highgarden in the name of Queen Margaery."

Is Loras in the Kingsguard? I don't recall ever seeing him in a white cloak. Or it was just Tywin making empty threats to Olenna?

Show!Loras certainly hasn't expressed a desire to join the KG, yet.

edited 27th Jul '14 10:48:40 AM by LogoP

Yeah, that's my feeling too. While I think perhaps the fact that Renly isn't muscular on the show played some role, I think the decision to have Loras take Garlan's role at the Blackwater was undoubtedly because it's more meaningful. And Garlan's only other scene of note is his praising Tyrion to Sansa, which it was easy enough to be given to Margaery in the show.

Willas hasn't even appeared on the screen yet in the books, so I wouldn't have expected him to in the show either- I think the show could/should have kept his betrothal being promised to Sansa, but I think as in the above case, while cutting a character creates loose ends, that can be solved by filling those holes (mixed metaphor there). So if Willas doesn't exist, you don't have Oberyn maiming him, and consequently, you don't have that hatred between the Tyrells and Martells, except in terms of the regional animosity.

On the topic of cutting characters and impacts, I saw that Jeyne Westerling will be (in?) the Prologue of TWOW. My first reaction was "Oh crap, D&D screwed up", but I remembered how when reading (and before the adaptation was announced) I got a bit confused regarding Jeyne Westerling versus Roslin Frey, and felt that the latter is a stronger character, which is why I think that (unless that crackpot fan theory about Jeyne being pregnant with Robb's heir is true) it would work well to just give Jeyne's plot to Roslin- which is not to say this is the plan- just what I would do.

As I see it, Jeyne Westerling is mostly a cipher in the books to this point, and her/her family's role in the story is confusing in that while it seems like Tywin had some role in setting things up (and it's treated in the book as his great plan being a success), but it isn't clear what the plan was, particularly because it isn't really clear to what extent the Westerlings/Spicers were in on the Red Wedding (poor Raynauld wasn't).

I can't say the show really "fixed" this aspect, since I believed in the "Lannister Honeypot" theory myself, but I think the idea of a Jeyne figure who has nothing to do with the Red Wedding except for motivating the Freys is a good one. One other benefit is that by having Talisa as a loner, there wasn't the need to cast Jeyne's whole family.

On the other hand, with Roslin, there is a neat plan that explains her betrothal to Edmure, and it's interesting how the two have this Starcrossed Lovers relationship and how it seems (IMO) like Roslin is unfortunately bound to be killed by the Blackfish or Stoneheart.

I don't think that whether a character is cut or kept is a mark of their importance to the story (although I also think it stupid how much hate D&D receive and how visceral that hate is). On the other hand, I think that without speaking to the quality of adaptation choices, the decision to cut a lot of characters as well as to have composite characters is an obvious one.

While it works in the books to have tons and tons of characters, some of which are only slightly characterized, that would work terribly in adaptation, both because of the need to cast all those people and because they'd either take up too much time or else would just be there to deliver a line or two. I wouldn't include Arrianne or the Greyjoy brothers in this category, as those are PO Vs and major characters, but I would include Garlan (and wife) and the Westerlings/Spicers.

Double posting, but in regard to Arya's quote about girls being stupid, while I don't think the show is endorsing the sentiment, the possibility that it was doesn't make it any less in-character. Arya is not self-hating in either book or show, but she takes a dim view of the Princess Classic styling and attitudes of Sansa and (in the books) Jeyne Poole, in part because it is more socially accepted than her interests and she's not good at it.

One thing that is interesting about the scene is that while for the most part in book and show we see Cersei as Sansa's Evil Counterpart, the scene indicates via Tywin's reaction and comments how Cersei is also Arya's Evil Counterpart. I hadn't really thought of it, but Arya's complaints in book and show about being married off while boys got to be heirs and warriors lines up pretty closely with Cersei's sentiments on that issue.

"I also think it stupid how much hate D&D receive and how visceral that hate is"

I don't agree with this because of the attitude and derision D&D give people when they ask why a character has been cut. Letting Alex "no means yes" Graves talk about how stupid fans were expecting LS was condescending and insulting to the fan base that led to this show being created.

D&D don't owe fans/viewers anything but since they didn't create the work, I would think it would best to not stray too far from canon, otherwise, why not just make your own world instead of bastardizing and bowdlerizing someone else's.

Could you quote something D&D said that's dismissive?

Partly I'm asking out of genuine interest, but also you accuse them of being condescending and then as support for that, cite something they didn't say.

Loras joins the KG as a wedding present to Tommen and Margaery. If they're going to do it in the show at all, I suspect it will be as a way for him to get out of marrying Cersei (probably at Jaime's suggestion). But the aforementioned elder brother shortfall might force them to drop that plot point altogether.

Something I didn't notice until now but:

Lady Tanda got turned into Lord Stokeworth.

Lady Blackmont got turned into Lord Blackmont.

The female heir to Dorne got replaced by a boy.

The previous ruler of Dorne was Doran's father in the show while it was Doran's mother in the show.

: /

edited 27th Jul '14 4:19:15 PM by MadSkillz

While prefacing this by saying that I really dislike the (likely) decision to cut Arrianne and (presumably) divide her plot between Trystane and the Sand Snakes, I don't really think there's any relation between that change and those other ones, nor is it proof (as goes a stupid theory) that D&D hate women.

Going through the list:

• Oberyn makes mention of his father (rather than mother in the book) in the context of telling about his "meeting" with baby Tyrion. I think Occams Razor says this is far more likely to be an error than a deliberate decision to slight women/eliminate Dornish inheritance rules. I'm also imagining a scene where the pathos of the moment was detracted from by Oberyn saying (as in the book) that it was his mother and then saying "As You Know, Tyrion, Dorne has absolute primogeniture, which it was my mother and not my father deciding to send me."
• Lord Blackmont was the name given to the Dornish Spear Carrier (literally!) who Tyrion greeted and looked down (literally!) on him. That the character is male was probably a choice- it plays into Oberyn bringing with him the threat of war, and so the delegation is basically a small army. Also, the guy isn't a Gender Flip of Lady Blackmont- it's more like he's a Comosite Character of the Dornish "delegation" that they decided to give the name Blackmont probably because it sounds better than Manwoody.
• I doubt "Lord" Stokeworth will even appear. If they do, I would guess the character will ba Composite Character of Tanda, Falysse, and Balman and will be male, as their fate will be that of Balman's rather than that of the two women. Whether are not this works well is another issue.

edited 27th Jul '14 4:35:07 PM by Hodor

The show has, unfortunately, fallen victim of the Great Patriarcal Cissexist Mysoginistic Chauvinistic world conspiracy whose goal is the men-ization of everything ever. They started by performing systematic Gender Lift on backround character nobody even remembers, let alone cares about.

May the Seven help us all.

@Hodor By themselves they seem relatively innocent but when you add these things together plus how they treat their females.

Yeah, they're not being malicious but you don't have to be malicious to be misogynistic.

Also new info about people being cast:

edited 27th Jul '14 4:46:30 PM by MadSkillz

The thirty something Dornishman sounds like Darkstar.

The vigiliante is pretty clearly a Son of the Harpy.

The ship's captain could be Groleo, the guy who brings Arya to Braavos, the guy who brings Sam and Aemon to Oldtown, or someone new.

The serving woman sounds new.

Could the last guy be Gyles Rosby?

D&D are as misoynistic as much as Cersei is a feminist icon.

EDIT: My guessings on that casting are: Darkstar, Stalwart Shield, a Son of the Harpy and maybe Maggy the Fox.

edited 27th Jul '14 5:03:42 PM by LogoP

>Logo P thinks Cersei is a feminist icon

>all respect lost

Concerning the casting the people who released this news have confirmed that it's not Darkstar.

@Irrose Groleo is Dany's ally. The guy that brings Arya to Braavos was casted last season and he's returning.

The last guy is most likely the assassination target of the Faceless Men that Arya is sent to kill.

edited 27th Jul '14 5:29:56 PM by MadSkillz

Cersei is indeed a feminist icon and a model strong, independent woman & mother.

D&D are also female-hating fuckwits bent on global gendercide. The phase one of their Evil Plan has already started. Rare footage of their reaction (we don't know who is it, since their true forms are largerly identical).

edited 27th Jul '14 5:17:44 PM by LogoP

>says something unreasonable

>says something reasonable

Please stop playing with this young girl's heart-o, Logo. :c

edited 27th Jul '14 5:29:36 PM by MadSkillz

While i'm glad that you finally acknowledge that calling D&D misogynistic is unreasonable, i'm troubled by the fact that you took my Joking Mode of Cersei being a feminist icon siriously.

What happened to you, Skillz? You always were a voice of progress

No- I think he "acknowledged" the opposite. He considers that comment about D&d hating women to be the reasonable part.

I still don't buy the accusation of female characters being badly treated in the series, so I don't see that "pattern" as supporting it. I see the "Lord Blackmont" and "Lord Stokeworth" as similarly to the mention of a King Orys or (one or two instances whose specifics escape me) where a character is spoken of whose name evokes but doesn't line up with a book character. They're basically just there as a placeholder. I was joking about the Manwoody thing, but looking at the Wiki of Ice and Fire, it does seem that Lord Blackmont really is a combination of the Manwoodys and the Qorgles for the most part, and I would guess given the name Blackmont (Lady Blackmont was also part o the entourage) since it is least odd of the three.

The one thing I will say is that in retrospect, I do raise an eyebrow at the emphasis by Oberyn in the show on how "we, the (male?) Dornish take good care of our women."

I mean most of it was him simultaneously saying that the Martels are good people/morally better than the Lannisters while also reminding Cersei/rubbing it in her face that Myrcella's life was in their hands, but I can admit the wording is a bit iffy- although, I thought the scenes did a good job of showcasing the disconnect between Cersei's legitimate complaints and her cruelty and hypocrisy.

I also came away from the scenes wondering whether Dornish succession might be changed to allow bastards- not sure how much to read into Oberyn's comments on the status of bastards, since most of it was in terms of him saying (slightly paraphrasing): "Don't worry about Myrcella's safety. We treat bastards well in Dorne."

edited 27th Jul '14 6:12:08 PM by Hodor

@Hodor Going to address both your posts.

There's really no good reason as to why they had their genders flipped.

Does making Blackmont a male somehow make the delegation more threatening? Give me a good reason why she can't be female? Lord Blackmont is a gender flip and at most (if he ever gets a character) could be a composite character.

Why do they have to explain how succession laws work by mentioning Oberyn's mother? Most people would conclude that she just has no siblings which would make her the real power.(And it seems that there's no absolute primogeniture in Dorne either)

And Bronn is going to be in Dorne next season and Lollys' sister and husband were mentioned. She is not a composite character but another gender flipped one.

These were all such unnecessary changes.

You really shouldn't sweep aside the rather loud criticisms the show receives by feminists for how it treats its females. : /

edited 27th Jul '14 7:05:07 PM by MadSkillz

"I think Occams Razor says this is far more likely to be an error than a deliberate decision to slight women/eliminate Dornish inheritance rules"

Also this is a rather problematic way to view things. They don't have to be to deliberate to count as misogynistic changes.

I really think you're looking into things too deep here. I mean, who gives a shit about Blackmont, Stokeworth or Oberyn's mother.

Honestly, I bet my life that 99.9% of the show watchers, along with most of the book readers, don't even remember that they are entities.

edited 27th Jul '14 7:05:42 PM by LogoP

I for one have literally no idea who Blackmont is. Couldn't have picked it as the real one out of a list of randomly generated names, prior to this conversation. What does she do?

I do have a vague memory of Doran mentioning that he inherited his rule from his mother, but it's hardly the first time they've been slapdash about family trees.

I'm by no means saying there aren't problems with how women are portrayed in the series. Just that these very minor changes don't really register, as far as I'm concerned. I'll stick to worrying about the characters with actual speaking parts.

edited 27th Jul '14 7:16:44 PM by johnnye