El Goonish Shive

NP!

The person mentioned is almost certain to be Agent Cranium

^_^ And odds that the first panel of the next NP has Pandora pointing while narrating?

Daremo- That was my first thought as well.

Also, possible solution to the "How much to tell Mr Verres" problem...

"Mr Verres? I have something to tell you... I found a magic mark on my back."

"Right- we need to find out what your spell is-"

"Actually, I sort of already found out..."

"Well? What does it do?"

"I'd uh, rather not say."

"Sarah, this important for your protection. You need to tell me."

"I.. I can see what people look like without their clothes on."

"..."

"..."

"...Teenagers."

edited 22nd Apr '15 6:30:09 AM by PapercutChainsaw

And then she needs to hope her mark never prompts her to receive a spellbook, which will be provided and potentially perused by Mr. Verres.

It's a short-term solution with potentially disastrous long-term consequences.

edited 22nd Apr '15 7:18:33 AM by TobiasDrake

@20125 The thing with what we've been shown about Ashley is that yeah, she still is fairly fresh as a character, but we got more character development out of her during her first five appearances than we have had in this entire storyline. Instead, this storyline seems mostly content to retread the same ground regarding her. Yeah, I know the circumstances involved are fairly mundane, but other avenues could have been explored rather than a combination of fluff and reiteration of established traits.

... Dear God, I just realized - it's Shive's redundant recapping tendencies all over again, except that he's doing it with a character instead of events. Damn it, Shive.

Beyond that, not to be flip, but I think the rest of your post can be summed up as the fact that we see pretty much the entire situation differently, nor do I think that either of us is about to convince the other. I could answer point-by-point, but then I'd just repeat myself, which would probably elicit a similar response from you, and that'd just drag the thread down.

Suffice to say, my editor tendencies come to the fore when I read EGS.

@20126 I wouldn't say "almost certainly." I'll definitely grant that, of the characters we've been introduced to, Cranium is the most likely to fit Pandora's description. But two things. One, we don't know everything that Verres' coworkers can do. Two, we don't know everyone that Verres has dealt with regarding his agency - Pandora could even be referring to someone who hasn't appeared in the comic yet.

If it's Cranium, that would be an appropriate Call-Back. But let's not totally dismiss the possibility that a Chekhov's Gunman has been introduced.

Also, man, Sarah's being awfully trusting of someone who apparently empowered her without her knowledge (at the time of empowering) and who is doing her best to be scary and ever-so-slightly adversarial. Maybe Pandora is, in fact, telling the truth... but if I were her, I wouldn't be so quick to trust that Villains Never Lie.

It's totally Cranium.

That's because everything she says makes perfect sense and is entirely reasonable.

There's nothing to doubt.

edited 22nd Apr '15 7:35:26 AM by TobiasDrake

@20131 The best lies usually do sound completely sensible and reasonable. And there is something to doubt - Pandora's intentions; even before she said anything, the entire setup should set off alarm bells in Sarah's head.

Of course, Sarah might in fact be thinking of all of these things and not trusting Pandora too much; Pandora is extremely talky and isn't letting Sarah to get much word in.

edited 22nd Apr '15 7:37:07 AM by 32_Footsteps

She did set off alarm bills; Sarah tried to call bullshit on her when Pandora said not to trust Mr. Verres, but was verbally bested by a pretty good explanation for that statement that could be accepted and acknowledging without compromising her emotional loyalty to him.

Sarah has no reason to be obstinate without cause when she ultimately knows very little about the entity that's appeared in her room. So far, Pandora has done two things to her knowledge:

• Attempted to reveal magic to the world, a goal which Sarah's closest male friend has also been pushing for months, so if that's villainous, then so is Tedd.
• Given out awesome magic spells seemingly at random, which Sarah is very delighted to receive.

From Sarah and Tedd's perspective, Pandora is the best thing ever.

If I went overboard with my response, and if I'm sometimes argumentative, then I apologise.

Ultimately, I don't have a problem with your perspective. In terms of character actions, either or both of us may turn out to be mistaken. The matters of editing and pacing are, I think, similarly subjective.

(I'm reminded of the differences between those who like the written version of The Lord of the Rings and those who find it too slow and descriptive. It might surprise you little that I recall that I enjoyed it; funnily enough, however, I found The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant to be too slow and heavy for my liking—but it's been some time since I last read The Lord of the Rings, and it's possible that I'd enjoy it less today.)

I suppose that I just sometimes feel that this subjectivity isn't acknowledged, that positions—and in particular positions critical of the comic—are expressed as being objectively true—although I do realise that I'm likely mistaken in at least some, perhaps all, of those cases. As I said, I do apologise.

@20133 Are you trying to bait me into calling Tedd a villain? Even if you set aside the debates over the Unfortunate Implications that pop up seemingly every other time Tedd opens his mouth, there is the fact that the comic has hinted, multiple times, that Tedd is on the road to villainy (i.e. the Lord Tedd route).

This is one of the examples that I would point to where Shive can, in fact, be subtle. I think it's quite intentional that you can draw the parallels between what Tedd wants and what Pandora wants. And I think it's rather intentional for both the reader and Sarah to potentially go "huh... creepy floaty girl who can mark people without permission is shooting for the same goals as Tedd... maybe that's not such a good idea."

As for Sarah getting alarm bells... eh, her reaction wasn't quite strong or sharp enough for me to think that counts as a mental alarm bell. Though like I said before, Pandora is dominating the conversation right now; it's quite possible that Sarah is way more skeptical than she first seems, and she just hasn't gotten the chance to express it because Pandora won't shut up.

As for Pandora being the best thing ever for Tedd and Sarah... well, first, to point out the obvious, Tedd doesn't know it was her or anything she's done. The closest he could come is saying "who or whatever gave me that mark"... sure, he's happy with it, but for all the crap I sling towards the character, I have to imagine that he would have enough questions to not dub her instantly "best thing ever."

Beyond that, though, I'm hoping the two are familiar enough with Deal with the Devil scenarios to start having questions about someone who just shows up and gives them whatever they wanted. Even if Sarah decides not to tell Verres about her mark immediately, which I could see rational reasons for doing, I'm hoping she does it based on her own reasons and not based on trusting Pandora to be honest and complete in her explanations (especially since we already have canon evidence that the latter isn't a guarantee).

@20134 That point did get lost in your response, yes, but no apologies needed. For myself and The Lord of the Rings, I only had one major issue with the book and one major issue with the films. My issue with the book is a very common one - frigging Tom Bombadil (obviously, I was one of the people who were glad to see him excised from the film version). The film issue is also common, though it could have been tweaked - the ending dragged in the last film, and that's more due to editing choices (namely, several scenes were filmed as a self-contained denouement rather than a single denouement that unfolded in parts).

Funny thing is, most of the minor quibbles I have about the films are that they could reasonably have been longer; the advantage of the books is that I feel that Tolkein uses that extra space to develop everything richly. Sure, he takes up a bunch of space, but I feel that he uses it well (though that opinion is not without detractors as well, even amongst Tolkein's peers).

Perhaps I should make explicit what I had hoped was implicit before - it's not that I want EGS to start producing smaller comics. What I want is for Shive to start using his space better. When I cite a particular comic for wasting half its panels, I'm not necessarily saying the comic should have used only half as many panels as it did. I'm saying that it should have used those panels much better than they were actually used. Advance another plotline, add better jokes... just do something better with that space than waste it on extraneous beat panels or recaps.

Not at all. I'm saying the protagonists have seen little reason to consider Pandora to be a nefarious ne'er-do-well when her observable behavior thus far has been largely benign.

We know her to be a malicious demigod entity attempting to dramatically bring about the end of the world as we know it, but they just know her as a magic being trying to give everyone cool powers.

Nobody seems to have a problem with Jerry doing that for Susan.

Or Nioi doing it for Ellen.

Or Greg. Or even Mr. Verres, who provided spellbooks.

So far, the entire cast has profited immensely from magical beings and magic-experienced humans teaching them, gifting them, and otherwise helping them obtain cool powers without asking much in return. Even Tedd got his TF Gun from a pair of aliens that just showed up at his door one day looking for his dad.

edited 22nd Apr '15 10:50:33 AM by TobiasDrake

@20136 Well, for one thing, Pandora is acting much less affable than any of the other entities mentioned. She's been downright threatening at points, even if she isn't directing it right at Sarah (though near enough that Sarah could reasonably pick up on the implications).

For another, the other examples of empowering are a bit flawed.

First, and easiest to discuss, Greg. Yes, Elliot and Nanase (and Ellen, by extension, since much of Elliot's power accumulation happened before the Dewitchery Diamond came into play) did get powers from his teaching. However, it's worth noting that he only tried to pass along martial arts skills; he wasn't aware that he was teaching people to become empowered until well after the parties in question got their power (it wasn't until after Elliot and Ellen awakened that he talked to Mr. Verres and learned it). Yes, Greg was directly responsible, but only by accident.

Jerry only indirectly can be responsible for Susan's awakening - his words triggered her angst-induced awakening, but similar to the above, he wasn't trying to awaken her. The only thing that Jerry doles out is a spell book and mundane advice.

Speaking of the spell book, yes, Jerry and Mr. Verres did hand those out. However, as was shown multiple times, the books themselves don't grant the spells; that power is internal. The books merely tell the keyed awakened individual what the spells in question actually do. Based on Jerry's comment (namely, how he said he was saving Susan a trip to the magic shop), the only thing that Jerry and Mr. Verres did in giving out the spell books is saving Ellen, Elliot, and Susan time and probably some amount of cash.

For Tedd and the TF gun, not only did permission get sought (more by Tedd asking to do it, though Will and Gill did ask Mr. Verres if it was alright as well), but they did ask for something in return (namely, human forms). That example doesn't fit the pattern either (though the fact that they did ask for something in return makes it by far the most sensible arrangement of them all).

Nioi is the only one amongst the named examples that actually did bestow something via magic onto one of the team. But a few caveats there. One, she waited until she got permission from Ellen before actually doing so. Two, multiple people were dubious of her, even after the magic nose beep didn't have any serious drawbacks. Three, she didn't actually give out new powers - Ellen received some mundane skills that she didn't previously have (such as singing), but nothing significant (unless there was some drawback to the "new soul, old body" thing that seemed to worry Nioi, but we have no reason to say one way or the other on that point).

If you want to stretch back, we can go into the French immortals, who did empower Nanase (awakening her) and Susan (marking her), but they were up front about what they were doing and asked permission first (and as Jerry pointed out, doing things even the way they did, with some lies of omission, was a bit skeevy). Pandora pushed a mark on Sarah without seeking permission, and even if it grants a neat power, that's still much less above board than any of the other dealings. I'm hoping that, when Pandora actually shuts up, Sarah is going to realize this and act accordingly.

Of course, to some extent, this might be all moot; maybe Sarah acting all paranoid about Pandora's intentions is exactly what Pandora wants. She already has shown a willingness to play mind games as well as the long wait.

Jerry also provided the Hammer-Summoning Artifact before Susan's awakening.

Yes, all the details of the sources are different from each other, but the overall point remains: Pandora is another in a long line of magical people or entities to freely distribute magical powers, properties, or implements in some capacity, and there's no reason for Sarah to arbitrarily assume malicious intent. She doesn't read the comic.

This is just something that happens in Moperville. Hell, the fact that Pandora's actually in her room right now walking her through the fine details of the ability she gave her is already a step up over many of the others.

edited 22nd Apr '15 2:45:15 PM by TobiasDrake

It is kind of hard to append a lot of ill intent to, "She gave me the magic power I'd been craving and then walked me through some of the hazards and fun abuses involved."

I mean she is the little girl who laughed maniacally on camera. Although if Shive actually does make them unsure if she's evil or not that'd be...well it'd be interesting.

New comic

Good saving throw I approve.

AND HELL FUCKING YES IT'S ABOUT TIME ELLEN.

Courtesy link.

So Ellen is finally confirmed as homoromantic bisexual? Nice.

Also, nice saving throw, Shive. Ashley makes some valid points about labels. Especially this part:

Labels do come with a lot of baggage. Ultimately, for me anyway, I'm cool with labeling myself, because I like labels personally (I'm an aromantic asexual Asian Indian-American Muslim cis girl, dang that's a lot of labels)! But I won't label people if they don't like labels. Everyone has different preferences, and it's okay!

edited 22nd Apr '15 9:40:19 PM by DeathsApprentice

Yes, this installment makes me feel much better about the bi issue. Also I LOLed at Ellen's "...No?"

edited 22nd Apr '15 9:43:55 PM by AliceMacher

I still can't believe that Shive doesn't read this thread.

I highly doubt that the discussions we have are exclusive to this thread.

I wonder how far in advance he does these strips...

edited 23rd Apr '15 6:13:38 AM by KarkatTheDalek

@20138 The magic hammers that Jerry made are an even worse example than the other Jerry examples. Jerry didn't grant anyone power with those; he left the power out there and basically said "Hey, any ladies that want it, here you go."

I think the actual closest parallel to what's going on with Sarah in the comic is actually Tedd and the "whales." They similarly popped in his private quarters completely unannounced and had a level of power well beyond what he would have initially expected. And it's worth noting, he was suspicious of them even before they did anything. Heck, he's still somewhat doubtful of them even after all they did was give him information. This is a perfectly rational reaction.

That said, assuming malicious intent isn't arbitrary. I've pointed out multiple times how, based solely on what Sarah could reasonably know, that something is fishy about the whole scenario.

I think a fairly rational reaction for Sarah would be to keep things under wraps for now, but start gathering information to see if Pandora could be trusted or not (particularly as her new power is particularly suited to experiment with the reactions that disclosure could mean). It's not that Sarah should dismiss what Pandora's saying outright (in fact, it wouldn't surprise me if much of it is true - the best lies are crafted with a basis in truth). But it'd be a mistake to simply trust her as well.

@20139 On the other hand, it's really easy to figure out ill intent behind "someone forced power onto me - something that theoretically shouldn't be possible - and then just waltzed right into my bedroom while acting menacingly." At the very least, the immortal floating in front of Sarah right now is being much less benign in behavior than her previous interaction with an immortal, Jerry.

@20143 Well, I approach the whole "labels" issue from the stance of someone who studied languages, who daily works with language, and who fancies himself an amateur linguist.

First and foremost, we use labels because it's really difficult to communicate without them. And to some extent, we all want varying amounts of precision with what we label. Otherwise, of course, you'd get sentences like "I do things with the thing on the thing."

The challenge is that people often wrongly assume a level of precision with various labels. To give an example that's pretty non-controversial, let's take oranges (the fruit, not the color). In general, this refers to a citrus fruit with a particular flavor profile that we generally think of as "orange." However, that flavor profile is extremely broad. You could reasonably call a mandarin, a tangerine, a navel orange, and a Valencia orange an "orange" and be correct.

Now, some people don't particularly like that level of imprecision in their oranges. They'll say "Hey, a tangerine isn't nearly tart enough to be counted as an orange, and you forgot the Seville orange, which is tart enough!" But that gets into the fact that oranges have a wider flavor profile than people initially think. Plus, it's not like all the variants of orange are the same species anyhow (in many cases, the oranges in question are as closely related to each other as they are to lemons, limes, and other citrus fruits). In short, the simpler label you use, the less the term actually means.

The problem, of course, is that many people assume way more meaning to various labels than they actually mean, and this becomes problematic when it's about a label attached to a person. I mean, if you get the wrong idea about the fruit I had for breakfast, nobody's going to really care outside of the citrus farmer who feels like I should be buying his wares instead. But if you make an assumption about someone who's bisexual (such as the way-more-common-than-it-should-be assumption that bixexuals are never monogamous), that is going to bother a bunch of people.

There is naturally the related problem that you can't just force people to understand the misconceptions that they might make about a term, nor can you always get through to people by explaining to them where they're in error. Outside of pelting them with clementines until they get it, though, there's not much you can actually do about it except work to be understood.

To bring this back around, I totally understand the frustration of people who get frustrated by labels, but I find that the frustration is somewhat misplaced. It's the downside to the richness of language that humans develop - it's taking one of the most beautiful tools humans have created and treating it like a club. The problem is how the tool is used, not the tool itself. Thus, I like labels. I just don't like how some people use them.

@20145 I took a quick peek, and the particular topic addressed in today's strip has popped up in discussions about the comic elsewhere. If you wanted to use today's strip as proof that Shive reads comments/forums about his comic in general, go for it. But I don't think this shows he reads this one specifically.

@20146 Well, the various delays that the strip regularly encounters leads me to believe that Shive does it on the fly - he scripts to some degree (though I'd guess he does so only in general outline form), but he moves things around a lot as various things (including his own thoughts) comes up.

For today's strip... mostly, I think the above covers most of it, but since it's becoming my personal bugaboo, eyup, Shive had to make sure Ashley hammered home the "cute" angle again. The rest of the strip is a tad Anvilicious, but I don't mind it for the most part, especially if it means we can move on past hair-splitting over sexuality and can instead develop the characters and the relationship between them.

Jesus Chirst, Shive, tract harder.

Tract Hard 2: Tract Harder.

edited 23rd Apr '15 6:38:26 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Tract 3: Tract Hard with a Vengeance

Tract 4: Write Free or Tract Hard

edited 23rd Apr '15 7:24:06 AM by DatLonerGirl