El Goonish Shive

One of the issues with Tedd is that, as much as I like his character when he's in Mad Scientist-mode, a noticeable Transformation Comic character-type that just plain doesn't fit as he is in other contexts, and when this strip gets dramatic in a personal way it just feels off with him as a result. It's why I consider the bulk of his stuff in this plot as being a case of Reality Ensues (or perhaps a more innocent Cerebus Retcon) rather than legit Character Development, suddenly what was intended to originally be humorous quirks are played much more seriously and realistically, and I'm not sure it works too much better than the old model did.

Though at the same time, as this thread has pointed out quite a bit, the character type he was gets rather creepy when you think about it - it's a staple of a genre where you're not really supposed to think about it in that way (they're generally really lighthearted), but it's still what it is. The new info we got on top of that doesn't really make it better, either, because... yeah. It clashes.

edited 18th Aug '14 7:08:40 PM by KnownUnknown

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

Whereas Shive thinks better about these things.

Mind, if there were TF gun IRL, given their temporary status, and if it weren't for them being a secret, how farfetch'd would it be for someone to consider it a harmless prank to TG somebody?

If it weren't for the fact someone would inevitably use it for rape, I wouldn't think it so bad. Oh no, you're temporarily the wrong sex. Then again, this maaaybe gets into Space Whale Aesop.

edited 18th Aug '14 7:07:31 PM by God_of_Awesome

Honestly, I'm not sure that I find the "inevitable use for rape" argument to be terribly compelling: pretty much any tool can be used to ill ends (a hammer can be used both to build houses and to crush skulls). Put another way, if we were discussing the potential invention of rope, the same argument might apply: people could be tied up with it for the purposes of rape.

I could also see the transformation device having some use against rape by allowing people to carry devices that temporarily transform attackers into a harmless shape; of course, that too would likely be used for ill ends, but then we end up with a sort of arms race of attempts to "patch" the problem with new fixes...

@Tobias: Huh. I didn't remember the retcon at all. (I do think that whether it retcons the seriousness of the revenge fantasy is arguable; it could be retconning only the reason that Tedd tested the transformation on himself rather than using his transformation-test device.)

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Well, it was a subtle retcon- when we first see Tedd as a girl, he's acting like it's the first time s/he's done it- checking herself out in the mirror and whatnot. But then Mr Verre's comments make it sound like it happens all the time. I'm not sure we can say Tedd's intent to transform Tony was retconned, though.

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The thing is, while I won't defend Tedd's crappier moments (the "Get Sarah to Wear a Bikini" fund, his generally misogynistic moments to say the least), I feel that he has grown as a character to a great extent. While yes, he's thinking about transforming Rich into a woman, I don't think it's that bad. He's thinking about it, yeah, but he's not going to do it because he isn't a borderline psycho.

With a past like his, he might become one by the end of the comic in... 30 or so years? But really, he's not bad enough to actually transform people into women for his own amusement or as a form of retribution.

I want to add that I don't consider Tedd's thoughts out of the ordinary or psychotic, because I am under the impression that revenge fantasies are common and ordinary, and a grand total of people would not actually act on them - Tedd included. He's not completely undamaged (who is?), but he has come a long way from his pre-Sister depiction.

TL;DR I have faith in both Tedd and Shive, and I honestly don't see why this is such a big point of contention. But hey, what else is new?

Also, while I'm here, new comic. Wanted to separate the link from my argument.

Also, Sketchbook. I love Pimp Raven.

I'm still trying to figure out what Tedd's out to prove here. Even if he had noticed, Justin already knows Tedd is prone to modifying himself and others in ways that others might find strange. All of his friends do. They've Seen It All to the point where things like that are Unusually Uninteresting Sights to them.

The only person I could see him getting a reaction out of what he's trying to do right now would be Susan, who would just say something sarcastic.

edited 19th Aug '14 12:43:47 AM by KnownUnknown

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

Most of Tedd's friends are not used to seeing him transform in public, however. Although the fact he is familiar to Tedd's female form is probably the reason Justin didn't notice anything. A familiar sigh, even out of context, is not particularly obvious.

Also, Justin's looking up from a sitting position. If he's focused on Tedd's face (which would be normal for a tall person) he might well not see the breasts. Remember, we aren't actually seeing most of what we look at, the brain is just filling in the gaps. Now, if Justin was standing up and looking down, then it would be really strange for him not to see Tedd's breasts, but in this case, since they're not massive, I can see Justin missing it. Especially since he's focused on something else anyway.

edited 19th Aug '14 6:40:46 AM by Zendervai

Not Three Laws compliant.

As a gay guy, he might also be less inclined to notice boobs in general.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.

Agreed, though the sudden hair change should probably give some pause for thought. I mean just today a classmate I hadn't seen in a while arrived and I noticed his hair was slightly darker than before.

Heck, we're friends with an asexual (*ie Wack'd), we can just ask him if he ever notices breasts.

The breast thing I could buy, if you're not inclined to notice that kind of thing, are you really going to notice that kind of thing? On the other hand, Justin has always had a thing for hair. Admittedly, it's for long hair, but he seems to have a hair thing nonetheless. It was one of the few consistent and defining traits he had.

edited 19th Aug '14 6:58:04 AM by MousaThe14

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See conversation about Change Blindness from a week ago....

Apocalypse: Dirge Of Swans.

Tedd's breasts were sufficiently small in this comic that at first I thought he'd changed back into a guy.

I do see that people are intent on offering proof that Tedd isn't evil (which, as I've said multiple times, I don't think he is)... but I don't really see any arguments as to why he'd be considered good either. I think the biggest flaw with Tedd in general is that I'm apparently expected to accept that Tedd is good but given very little reason to actually say such. Much of the "good" that he's supposedly done (like not actually transform someone maliciously) is stuff that isn't so much "good" as "baseline for standard human behavior" (accounting for abilities). It'd be much easier to accept Tedd as a character if the in-story treatment of him were closer to how he acts (a fundamentally warped and perverted egomaniac with occasional Jerkass moments, but not actually evil).

For today's comic... I just kind of faceplamed, which is pretty much the reaction I think Shive was going for (witness the previous discussion of change blindness).

For Justin, I facepalmed because, honestly, why would he think that Tedd would even care about his earring? This isn't a slight against Tedd; there's the legit question as to why anyone would care about said earring. Yeah, there is the "signal to other gay guys" aspect, but as Tedd is still not a gay man (he's not gay, and half the time not a man), I'd never expect Tedd to care.

For Tedd, it's not so much the "why would a gay guy notice breasts?" question (which, while possibly fair, is irrelevant), but a question of the wisdom of pointing out your sudden magical sex change (and related hair color change). Yes, Justin is in the know and wouldn't freak out about it, but Justin isn't the only person present. I know Tedd is under the belief that Information Wants to Be Free, but he really can't see the potential downsides at all to revealing magical powers in this way? Particularly by doing a reveal with something as dramatic as transformation magic?

Also, I have a much simpler explanation as to why Justin didn't notice Tedd's change and vice versa. Namely, both were so intent and focused on showing off what was different that neither was actually looking at the other (it's hard to tell from the panel layout, but it looks like Justin looked off to the side the whole time and Tedd had either looked down at his breasts or at the ceiling). That's not quite change blindness; that's just good ol' fashioned lack of attention.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed. I thought that was the point of the last two panels.

This "faculty lot" you speak of sounds like a place of great power...

It was clearly the point and I did notice but, come on, hair suddenly got the blue saturation increased.

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I'll be surprised if Justin doesn't do some sort of double-take in either tomorrow's or Thursday's comic.

The Two Idiots continue being dumbasses and Tedd does continues to do something stupid; NEXT TIME ON EL GOONISH SHIVE Z!

Let's be fair - Those Two Idiots weren't in today's strip, and Tedd did a different stupid thing today than he previously did.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

Which is covered under change blindness. I've seen people in real life miss that the person they're talking to is a suddenly a foot taller and doesn't even look remotely like the person who started the conversation. It's actually a fun experiment to perform. Hair color change? EASY miss.

As long as they don't see the change occur, a lot of people don't realize it changed at all. It's the part of a person's mind that stops the change from reaching the conscious mind by going, "No, I'm just remembering this wrong, nothing is different." That Tedd looks more normal now than he did before the change only amplifies this effect, because to Justin's subconscious, there is nothing unusual about Tedd at all.

edited 19th Aug '14 9:39:25 AM by TobiasDrake

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God I must be so weird because it's always in my nature to not only notice that someone's physically changed but to bring it up just to make sure.

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Ok, I'll give you that.

I'm surprised there isn't more discussion on the EGS:NP strips, or the retro commentary.

I can buy Justin not noticing the breasts or hair colour... but why did he not notice the change in voice?

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