The Order of the Stick

I think it can be "justified" in those mechanic terms However, I also thought it made sense as characterization. Haley basically made it so that she was no longer the number one person on Crystal's kill list (now she's number two, under Bozzok).

The only part that seems potentially odd is that Crystal Golem is able to make rational choices like that, but IIRC it is part of the mechanic anyway and the golem is smarter than the living Crystal.

This is the same Crystal who sincerely believed that Haley had a racial vulnerability to pickles.

Telling the truth gets me as being a really odd "bluff", though.

Mind you, not that long ago, using the truth would have been a little alien to Haley. Even in this situation.

edited 30th Mar '15 11:55:14 AM by Euodiachloris

Yeah, her intelligence could only go up from there.

I'll also add that although of course Burlew wrote the plot this way, it doesn't seem unbelievable or out-of-character that Bozzok would have done this. I think it's a fine line to walk when writing (one which I think Burlew has crossed at times), but it really does make a certain amount of sense that an evil character would make stupid/non pragmatic decisions because they are evil.

Bozzok could have very easily just rezd Crystal (and then presumably made her go through a difficult/humiliating process to Work Off the Debt), but that's more of a Neutral action than an Evil one.

I'm actually assuming Bozzok has some amount of control over Crystal, which would likely show up in the next strip or two if I'm right.

After all, as Haley pointed out, why spend so much turning her into a golem if for the same price you could just raise her and buy some magical items to outfit her with? I'm thinking it's because while a human might turn against you or otherwise do something you don't want, a golem is a tool, and therefore more reliable.

No, because golems have a chance of going berserk every round if the elemental powering them goes out of control. Grubwiggler presumably failed a Will? save, meaning Crystal is out of his control.

That would make sense.

That being said though, I think part of the calculation is that as a purpose-willed undead that is somewhat smarter than the living Crystal, Bozzok thought the golem would be more reliable. And ironically, it's these qualities that allowed Haley to succeed in Talking the Monster to Death (because the "real Crystal" would never be that rational).

edited 30th Mar '15 12:17:15 PM by Hodor2

I feel that Bozzok is yet another victim of unnecessarily elaborate plotting. Let us remember, though, that he's a sociopath: a high-functioning one but a sociopath nonetheless. He has absolutely zero regard for the mental and physical well-being of his subordinates so long as they follow his orders. People are tools to him. He is aware that Crystal is stupid and figured that Golem!Crystal would be as easy to manipulate as the living Crystal.

Moreover, even if he paid for her resurrection and decked her out in magic items, there's no guarantee she'd be able to defeat Haley. Adding golem properties makes her virtually invulnerable to a rogue, as we've seen in these last few strips. What Bozzok keeps overlooking — his fatal flaw, if you will — is that Haley is not stupid and that her suite of skills is much more subtle than simply shooting arrows at things until they drop dead. Sociopathy plus hubris: a deadly combination to oneself if it goes on long enough.

Whether Bozzok has some kind of backup control over Crystal remains to be seen. I suspect that he does, but has been counting on persuasion to get her to obey. Still, Haley now knows where Bozzok is and has zero reason to spare his life this time around. I believe that he will die here.

If we are taking Crystal turning on Bozzok to be the Berserker effect, then Grubwiggler could still attempt to re-establish control over her.

edited 30th Mar '15 12:21:13 PM by TobiasDrake

This may count as "breaking control", only in this case it's an intelligent mind doing so rather than a mindless elemental spirit. Rather than physical combat, we may see a duel of Bluff checks as each party tries to persuade Crystal to their side. That would be pretty amusing.

Indeed, it may.

Conversely, she might not be Berserked at all; she was granted a level of personal agency in these events, and it was a successful skill check, not a random effect, that sent her after Bozzok. He may yet be able to assert more direct control. Instead of having broken free from her leash, she may merely be acting within the length that was allowed to her originally, with Bozzok retaining the ability to jerk the chain.

edited 30th Mar '15 12:24:35 PM by TobiasDrake

You know, I would like to see Bozzok humiliated here as his pawns all abandon him. That would be a true defeat. Consider a scenario in which he attempts to betray Grubwiggler by setting Crystal on him instead ("I didn't put you in pain, he did!"). Then Grubwiggler reveals that he holds ultimate control over her and switches sides, ordering the now mindlessly enslaved Crystal to destroy her former master.

Moral: if you treat everyone around you like dogs and kick them repeatedly, they bite back.

edited 30th Mar '15 1:53:22 PM by Fighteer

What I wanted to say is that the implausibility of the "convince Crystal to get back at Bozzok" plan is part of the point. It's not impossible, but it's something nobody but Haley could do.

edited 30th Mar '15 2:27:16 PM by Cozzer

Remember she more than halved the price of the ship repairs and sped them up significantly not long before. She's got a hell of a CHA score alongside bluff, speech, and everything else out the wazoo.

Just a quick question. Are we sure that the check she had to pass was a bluff check? Bluff checks are lies right? Nothing Haley says in this page qualifies as a lie.

It's not really a bluff, more of a general speech check. They made a plot point a while ago back in the desert arc that bluff doesn't help when trying to convince people of the truth. Witness her convince a guard he's actually a polymorphed newt, but fail to convince her father to trust elan, or that Roy was actually in charge.

That would just be Diplomacy, right?

True, Diplomacy and Bluff are different checks.

Seems like Diplomacy and Bluff should be the same. I don't see much of a difference between convincing someone of something you know to be false and doing the same for something you know to be true.

It's very important, trust me. Diplomacy often works as a check for dealing with forces that aren't hostile, or with high society, or to try and mediate between two parties. Bluff is the straight up lying check, used in literally every scenario the word lie could be attributed.

Just seems arbitrary that Bluff only works when it's actually a lie. If you're trying to convince someone of something, and they don't know for sure if it's real, it should take the same skillset, whether or not it's actually true.

Not really; lying takes some additional skills. Like, how to keep it believable, avoid saying things that would make people suspicious, the ability to invent details on the spot if they ask for elaboration, etc.

Just because a person can negotiate terms doesn't mean they can convince someone of a lie.

Elan tried using Diplomacy to get out of jail when mistaken for Nale. His attempts made it very, very clear that his Bluff score is almost certainly terrible. That said, his Diplomacy should be pretty high.

All except the last of which would translate well into convincing them of something that you know is true, and they don't have any evidence of. Something being true doesn't help one bit if your explanation makes it sound false.