Avatar: The Last Airbender

Really? If, instead of banishing him to go search for the Avatar, Firelord Ozai had commanded Zuko, "You can earn back your honor if you can kill Azula in the Agni Kai," would he immediately reject the entire notion out of hand, tell his father he's an Epic Douche, and then run away and abandon his family forever, or would he have to take time and seriously consider his options? Even if he knew he couldn't do it, would he announce it right that second and face the wrath of the Firelord, or would he need to go think about what the hell he can do to get out of this?

Thinking is not a free action. Answers don't come immediately, especially in a situation as emotionally difficult as this one, and especially when that situation catches you completely off-guard and you aren't emotionally prepared to even digest what is being said to you. Likewise, it is not an easy thing for people to instantly abandon everything they've ever known, loved, and believed in.

Stop thinking like an Evil Overlord and think like a human being who has thoughts, feelings, and emotions, but is kind of a dipshit. Your Pros and Cons there only work if Azulon had some specific reason why he wanted Zuko, specifically, to die. If his command was just about killing Zuko and Ozai out of spite because Evil Overlords are meaninglessly Evil even when there's no real benefit to it.

The Fire Nation's Royal Family is a very Firelord-dominated social system. The father commands, and the family obeys. Ozai tells Zuko to go wander the world searching for his lost honor and he obeys without question. Ozai tells Azula to go hunt down and bring in Zuko, and she obeys without question. The Firelord speaks and the family does. There is no reason for Azulon to expect Ozai to stage a coup against him, because that's not how the family operates. And there is absolutely no reason for Azulon to want Ozai himself dead, because that's needlessly self-destructive to his legacy For the Evulz.

Seriously, Azulon would have to be epically stupid to have Ozai killed or publicly dishonored. With Iroh's son dead, without Ozai to inherit the throne if Iroh fails to sire a new heir, the royal bloodline dies. Ozai's not the black sheep of the family, he's just the runner-up. This entire proposed scheme is nonsense. There's no motivation for Azulon to commit it. It depends too heavily on a Motivational Paradox. This basic premise:

• Azulon wants Ozai killed so he won't seek revenge for Zuko's death.

Leaves no explanation for why he would order Zuko's death in the first place. What purpose is there in it? If his entire plot was to prevent Ozai from seeking revenge for Zuko's death, he could avoid the entire thing by just not ordering Zuko's death. And if he seeks to punish Ozai, as I proposed, then this is completely overboard; when you spank a child, you don't shank him afterward, and if you were going to shank him, you wouldn't bother with the spanking.

Azulon plotting to kill Ozai and Ursa makes no sense given the context of the situation and the characters involved in it.

edited 13th Mar '14 9:39:00 AM by TobiasDrake

Really? If, instead of banishing him to go search for the Avatar, Firelord Ozai had commanded Zuko, "You can earn back your honor if you can kill Azula in the Agni Kai, " would he immediately reject the entire notion out of hand, tell his father he's an Epic Douche, and then run away and abandon his family forever, or would he have to take time and seriously consider his options? Even if he knew he couldn't do it, would he announce it right that second and face the wrath of the Firelord, or would he need to go think about what the hell he can do to get out of this?

We are talking about the same Zuko here, right? Of course he'd reject an option like that immediately. Speaking without thinking was the reason he got into that mess in the first place!

Even assuming that he realized that holding his tongue was prudent and considered his options, though, there's one option he'd never seriously consider, which is actually going through with it. We know Ozai seriously considered going through with killing Zuko, because he admitted that he was going to do it before Ursa came up with an alternative that he liked better.

Stop thinking like an Evil Overlord and think like a human being who has thoughts, feelings, and emotions, but is kind of a dipshit.

Okay, fine. Here's my new list of pros and cons:

Pro — Ozai gets to suffer a perfect karmic punishment.

Con — My grandson is dead.

Con — My son either wants to kill me, or doesn't care enough for the karmic punishment to be effective.

Con — My daughter-in-law definitely wants to kill me.

Con — My other son (and current heir) thinks I'm a complete and utter monster.

In other words, a person like the one you described would have absolutely no reason to make an order like that.

Honestly, you walked right into that one. =P

There is no reason for Azulon to expect Ozai to stage a coup against him, because that's not how the family operates.

Except that, you know, treachery and backstabbing is how that family operates (which Azulon should realize given that Ozai just tried to disinherit his brother behind his back).

And there is absolutely no reason for Azulon to want Ozai himself dead, because that's needlessly self-destructive to his legacyFor the Evulz.

And there's a non-insane reason for him to want Zuko dead?

With Iroh's son dead, without Ozai to inherit the throne if Iroh fails to sire a new heir, the royal bloodline dies.

You're forgetting about Azula, who is both the only non-failure of Ozai's line in Azulon's eyes and young enough to mold. I know if I were Azulon, she's the one I'd want as Iroh's heir given Ozai's disrespect.

And if he seeks to punish Ozai, as I proposed, then this is completely overboard; when you spank a child, you don't shank him afterward, and if you were going to shank him, you wouldn't bother with the spanking.

What Azulon order isn't spanking, it's torture. And, yes, the sorts of people who are going to torture you aren't necessarily going to care if you survive to remember it.

Yes. We are talking about the Zuko who spent years trudging around the world on a Snipe Hunt, never allowing himself to accept that his father sent him out there to die, because he was determined to do whatever it took to win back his honor. The Zuko that betrayed the only people who ever cared for him because Azula tugged at his honor strings. The Zuko that saw Uncle Iroh returned to the Fire Nation in chains because it meant winning back his father's respect.

Pro - My son will learn his place and never question me or my favorite son, who will be his king when I pass on, again.

Treachery and backstabbing is how Azula and Ozai operate, and Azulon's command was a punishment for just such an act of treachery. I don't think he was operating with, "I live in a family of backstabbers!" in mind.

Yes, because it wasn't about Zuko. It was about teaching Azulon's son the price of betrayal, and to learn his place in the royal hierarchy. The point of the lesson isn't, "Zuko should die because I don't like Zuko." It's, "You tried to profit off your brother's pain. You will experience the same pain. Then you will understand what your brother is going through, and the true horror of what you have tried to do will become apparent to you." It's cold, symmetrical Eye-for-an-Eye retribution for the sleight Ozai committed against Azulon's favored son.

I'm not forgetting about Azula, actually. If Ozai is discredited, then Azula goes with him, because the offspring of a disgraced murderer and child-killer doesn't get to inherit the throne. That's not how succession works. If Azulon has Ursa and Zuko killed and uses their deaths to discredit Ozai, then Azula is discredited right along with him and Iroh becomes the sole viable heir to the Firelord's throne, and that's just downright bad for the legacy, because if anything happens to Iroh before he can sire an heir, the royal bloodline is forever lost.

What Azulon orders is punishment, and the purpose of punishment is to teach you what not to do again. There is no purpose in it if you are not given the chance to learn from your mistakes and do better in the future.

edited 13th Mar '14 10:30:54 AM by TobiasDrake

So, are you guys gonna release the Cliff Notes of this discussion, or...?

How about the idea that these were harsh selfish people utterly full of themselves and prone to harsh selfish moves that were often as not counterproductive? There were two members of the bloodline who figured out in time that this life was unsustainable and vile. While flawed themselves, they are among our heroes.

Yes. We are talking about the Zuko who spent years trudging around the world on a Snipe Hunt, never allowing himself to accept that his father sent him out there to die, because he was determined to do whatever it took to win back his honor. The Zuko that betrayed the only people who ever cared for him because Azula tugged at his honor strings. The Zuko that saw Uncle Iroh returned to the Fire Nation in chains because it meant winning back his father's respect.

And we're also talking about the Zuko who tried to save the life of his fiercest competitor in said Snipe Hunt, who spoke out of turn to try to save a bunch of people he didn't know.

Zuko is not the person you want to be using as a comparison if you're trying to argue that considering murder is normal. =P His empathy is one of his most notable traits, and when it comes into conflict with his honor, it wins more often than not.

Pro - My son will learn his place and never question me or my favorite son, who will be his king when I pass on, again.

I didn't realize I was supposed to assume Azulon was delusional. =P He'd be more rational to slap a rattlesnake and expect it to learn not to bite.

Treachery and backstabbing is how Azula and Ozai operate, and Azulon's command was a punishment for just such an act of treachery. I don't think he was operating with, "I live in a family of backstabbers!" in mind.

Regardless of whether he believed it before, you can bet that any rational monarch would consider the possibility of further treachery given the circumstances!

Yes, because it wasn't about Zuko. It was about teaching Azulon's son the price of betrayal, and to learn his place in the royal hierarchy. The point of the lesson isn't, "Zuko should die because I don't like Zuko." It's, "You tried to profit off your brother's pain. You will experience the same pain. Then you will understand what your brother is going through, and the true horror of what you have tried to do will become apparent to you." It's cold, symmetrical Eye-for-an-Eye retribution for the sleight Ozai committed against Azulon's favored son.

Whether or not it was about Zuko, you can't ignore the fact that he's the one who's going to suffer the most out of all this.

It's important to remember that the Fire Nation is not a society that treats children as chattels. Zuko should have an emotional value to Azulon unless he's just as heartless as Ozai.

No human being operating in a society in which children are considered persons who is in possession of a full set of mental and emotional faculties would ever even consider ordering a grandchild murdered to punish a son. It just wouldn't happen. We're already deep into For the Evulz territory, regardless of how much you refuse to accept it.

I'm not forgetting about Azula, actually. If Ozai is discredited, then Azula goes with him, because the offspring of a disgraced murderer and child-killer doesn't get to inherit the throne. That's not how succession works. If Azulon has Ursa and Zuko killed and uses their deaths to discredit Ozai, then Azula is discredited right along with him and Iroh becomes the sole viable heir to the Firelord's throne, and that's just downright bad for the legacy, because if anything happens to Iroh before he can sire an heir, the royal bloodline is forever lost.

If Ozai is discredited as a traitor, maybe. But Azulon doesn't have to frame it that way — as the Fire Lord, there's no reason he can't make it out like he's saving his poor, defenseless granddaughter from her mad father. We're not assuming children are chattels, after all... Azula is her own person who may be worth protecting even if her father needs to be put down.

What Azulon orders is punishment, and the purpose of punishment is to teach you what not to do again. There is no purpose in it if you are not given the chance to learn from your mistakes and do better in the future.

It may be punishment, but punishment is not inherently disciplinary in nature. The death penalty is punishment, after all, and that's a mix between retribution and a message to society as a whole, with no disciplinary value whatsoever.

Here are Azulon's words, by the way:

"But you, your punishment has scarcely begun!"

And, through the Azula filter:

"Grandfather said dad's punishment should fit his crime. 'You must know the pain of losing a first born son, by sacrificing your own!'"

None of that suggests that Azulon is trying to teach Ozai a lesson. It sounds more like he wants Ozai to suffer for his "crime."

Now, with all that said... you're forgetting something important: it doesn't even matter whether Azulon wants Ozai dead as long as he wants to see Zuko die! I mean, the point of this tangent was to show that Ozai's failure to murder Zuko immediately need not suggest anything good about himself.

In fact, Ozai could have been ordered to murder Zuko at a specific time to draw out the pain of knowing what he'd have to do (with the intention that Zuko's death would never actually happen) and the effect would be the same — the fact that Zuko was still alive to hear about the plan implied absolutely nothing in Ozai's favor.

edited 13th Mar '14 3:03:45 PM by Ikkin

Yeah, I'm not really into reading dissertations. A brief statement of key points would be appreciated.

I am surprised (but not really) that there is such a volume about Ozai and the Fire Royals.

Yeah, the comics already explained why Ozai didn't kill Zuko right away - he was waiting until his son was fast asleep, so he wouldn't suffer.

Summing things up might be helpful, yes.

Tobias said that he thought Ozai was originally less awful but ended up hardened into a monster due to trauma from the incident involving Zuko, Ursa, and Azulon. I said that Ozai didn't seem like the sort of guy who'd be traumatized over that, and that trauma of that sort wouldn't create a Complete Monster anyway.

Tobias then suggested that Ozai's wrestling with his decision whether or not to kill Zuko and the fallout from that incident could have psychologically broken him and made him despise Zuko. I replied that Ozai's predicament was his own fault (for making an obviously-terrible request of Azulon) so he couldn't reasonably blame Zuko for it, and he wouldn't have even considered killing Zuko if he were a decent person in the first place.

The conversation derailed at that point to Ozai's motivation in potentially killing Zuko, with Tobias saying that it was reasonable for him to consider his options when confronted with the potential loss of everything he cared about and me saying that a reasonable father would get the heck out of there, since he had no guarantee that Azulon wouldn't kill him even if he did obey his orders and he wouldn't have to worry about killing Zuko if he left.

Tobias tried to defend Ozai some more by suggesting that he only considered it, and the amount of time it took him to act demonstrated that he was conflicted. I said that there could have been many reasons why Ozai would wait that didn't involve any real conflict, including options in which Azulon wanted to see the deed done, either personally or publicly (with the purpose of making Ozai easier to get out of the way).

Tobias suggested that Ozai would have stuck around for the same reason as Zuko tried to regain his honor. I argued that if Zuko were ordered to murder someone, he'd have refused.

Tobias argued that the potential situation in which Azulon wanted Ozai out of the way was pointlessly evil; I said that ordering Zuko's death to punish Ozai was already pointlessly evil and so the only criterion on which the plausibility of that option could be judged was sociopathic self-interest (ie. if Azulon ordered Ozai to kill Zuko, he'd risk assassination attempts if he didn't ensure Ozai and Ursa were put out of commission immediately afterwards).

Tobias tried to say that Azulon would expect obedience from Ozai as a result of his punishment rather than retribution and backstabbing, and I replied that Azulon really should have known how his family worked given that Ozai had already proven to be a backstabbing social climber.

Tobias insisted that Azulon's order was intended to discipline Ozai; I argued that it was an act of retribution rather than an act of discipline, and so it didn't guarantee Ozai's future safety.

I then brought up the fact that the "would Azulon have killed Ozai" tangent was unnecessary, because all I needed to do was to show that Ozai didn't need any sympathetic motivation for not killing Zuko immediately, and that's where we're at currently.

...wow. I cut out all of the stuff about the nature of abuse and whether abused kids think it's worth it to pursue their abusive parents' affection (because I'm pretty sure that all got conceded when the conversation turned elsewhere), but even the cliff's notes version is longer than it ought to be. >_>;

I'm not arguing that considering murder is normal. I'm arguing that he wouldn't dismiss it out of hand and immediately forsake everything he's ever known and loved and believed, and everything that has ever meant anything to him in his entire life, right there in the heat of the moment without a second's hesitation.

Seriously. People are complicated. Hard choices are complicated, especially when every answer is horrible and will ruin your life.

You are supposed to assume that he is a king of an imperial, expansionist nation, and a dominating enough man that he would do something as heartless as commanding the death of his grandson as punishment for an offense committed against his favored son. The kind of man who would slap a rattlesnake and expect it to learn not to bite, because every rattlesnake he's slapped before learned its place and fell in line. You don't get to be the kind of man Azulon is without breaking a few eggs, and most eggs stay broken when you break them.

If he was some peasant child trying to lead a revolution, certainly. But from his son, who spent the last five minutes kissing his ass, respectfully called him by his title, "Firelord Azulon," rather than informally calling him father, and even swore to be his faithful servant once he revoked Iroh's birthright? Unthinkable. Young Ozai as presented wasn't a scheming manipulator of infinite ambition, capable of ruthlessly cutting down his own father to obtain a seat of power. He was an opportunistic bootlocker who didn't have the balls to take any kind of real action against Azulon. He was not a viper; a man like Firelord Azulon has no reason to be fearful or intimidated by a callow worm who waits until his brother is out of country before daring to speak against him.

I'm not denying that it was evil, but it wasn't For the Evulz. There was an actual motivation for why Zuko's death was ordered. He wasn't just doing it to be evil. It was an evil thing to order, but it wasn't done For the Evulz. We are told, outright, the reason why it was ordered. All you're doing is inventing new reasons that are not supported in the show, in the characterizations, or in believable human behavior.

You're seriously reaching on this one.

Fine, let's review. This is my position:

• Ozai tried to take advantage of Iroh's loss by seizing the Firelord legacy for himself.
• Azulon was deeply offended by Ozai's attempt, and demanded that he suffer the same pain as his brother as retribution for his crime. Ozai was commanded to kill Zuko, an order that Azulon believed would cause tremendous pain to his son, otherwise he never would have ordered it in the first place.
• Ozai did not carry out the order immediately, implying that he needed to consider his options. This also implies that to kill Zuko would have caused him tremendous pain; he was not the kind of man who could kill Zuko right off the bat and go, "Okay, done! What next?"
• Before Ozai could take any action towards or against this command, Ursa assassinated Azulon to protect Ozai and Zuko from the consequences of either obeying or refusing this terrible choice, and then disappeared. Ozai lost both his father and his wife in one fell swoop because of his hesitation towards killing his son, an extremely traumatic ordeal.
• Ozai grew to resent Zuko for what happened, eventually going so far as to challenge him to an Agni Kai and permanently scar him forever, then banish him forever on a Snipe Hunt over the most ridiculous and silly of sleights, all out of misplaced blame for that terrible night. He despised Zuko, all while continuing to shower blatant favoritism and pride on Azula; respecting her so much that he would even be willing to allow Zuko to return to the Fire Nation on her word that he totally should, and accept her claims that Zuko killed the Avatar without question because she said it.

edited 16th Mar '14 11:18:58 AM by TobiasDrake

This is still going on way too long...

One thing I should point out is that somewhere between your last two posts, you have removed Ozai of any agency in plans concerning him.

I'm not arguing that considering murder is normal. I'm arguing that he wouldn't dismiss it out of hand and immediately forsake everything he's ever known and loved and believed, and everything that has ever meant anything to him in his entire life, right there in the heat of the moment without a second's hesitation.

Seriously. People are complicated. Hard choices are complicated, especially whenevery answer is horrible and will ruin your life.

Why are you acting like his only choices are immediate disappearance and considering killing Zuko? If he was going to cut and run, he'd almost certainly try to plan it out as much as possible.

The problem is, we know he wasn't trying to figure out a non-murderous solution because he said he was going to kill Zuko before Ursa intervened.

You are supposed to assume that he is a king of an imperial, expansionist nation, and a dominating enough man that he would do something as heartless as commanding the death of his grandson as punishment for an offense committed against his favored son. The kind of man who would slap a rattlesnake and expect it to learn not to bite, because every rattlesnake he's slapped before learned its place and fell in line. You don't get to be the kind of man Azulon is without breaking a few eggs, and most eggs stay broken when you break them.

And you don't underestimate people consistently and survive to into your nineties in an imperialist, expansionist nation known for ambition.

Seriously, nobility doesn't work that way. The way Azulon treated Ozai would have gotten him killed years ago if he'd done it enough to expect it to work on everyone.

If he was some peasant child trying to lead a revolution, certainly. But from his son, who spent the last five minutes kissing his ass, respectfully called him by his title, "Firelord Azulon, " rather than informally calling him father, and even swore to be his faithful servant once he revoked Iroh's birthright? Unthinkable. Young Ozai as presented wasn't a scheming manipulator of infinite ambition, capable of ruthlessly cutting down his own father to obtain a seat of power. He was an opportunistic bootlocker who didn't have the balls to take any kind of real action against Azulon. He was not a viper; a man like Firelord Azulon has no reason to be fearful or intimidated by a callow worm who waits until his brother is out of country before daring to speak against him.

He wasn't a rebellious peasant child, no. But he was a father who Azulon assumed would be devastated by the loss of his son, and parental love can make people do crazy things.

Azulon should have been afraid of Ozai for the same reason as he should have been afraid of Ursa — he had no way of predicting whether they'd step in line or whether they'd be driven to violent irrationality.

I'm not denying that it was evil, but it wasn't For the Evulz. There was an actual motivation for why Zuko's death was ordered. He wasn't just doing it to be evil. It was an evil thing to order, but it wasn't done For the Evulz. We are told, outright, the reason why it was ordered. All you're doing is inventing new reasons that are not supported in the show, in the characterizations, or in believable human behavior.

How is killing Ozai any less well-motivated than killing Zuko? Ozai's the only one who upset Azulon!

Ordering Zuko killed risked turning Ozai and Ursa into threats. Using that to discipline Ozai is not believable human behavior, unless Azulon intended some way to neutralize those two.

You're seriously reaching on this one.

It's far more reasonable than your "Ozai isn't responsible for anything" interpretation. The "treachery requires the death of the entire family" rule is nowhere near universal, especially where children are treated as persons.

Now, onto your review:

Ozai tried to take advantage of Iroh's loss by seizing the Firelord legacy for himself.

Fair enough.

Azulon was deeply offended by Ozai's attempt, and demanded that he suffer the same pain as his brother as retribution for his crime. Ozai was commanded to kill Zuko, an order that Azulon believed would cause tremendous pain to his son, otherwise he never would have ordered it in the first place.

Also fair, but I will note there's no reason to assume Azulon was right about Ozai.

Ozai did not carry out the order immediately, implying that he needed to consider his options. This also implies that to kill Zuko would have caused him tremendous pain; he was not the kind of man who could kill Zuko right off the bat and go, "Okay, done! What next?"Before Ozai could take any action towards or against this command, Ursa assassinated Azulon to protect Ozai and Zuko from the consequences of either obeying or refusing this terrible choice, and then disappeared. Ozai lost both his father and his wife in one fell swoop because of his hesitation towards killing his son, an extremely traumatic ordeal.

This is an absurd inference in a number of ways.

First, Ozai's orders likely precluded instant action. Azulon probably wouldn't want Ozai to act outside of his sight, to ensure that it got done properly.

Second, considering his options could have had any number of reasons other than thinking it'd be awful to kill Zuko. He could be looking for the most politically advantageous option, for instance.

Third, Ursa' s banishment suggests that Ozai knew what she was planning and let her go with it. The idea that Ursa acted without Ozai's knowledge fits terribly with canon.

Fourth, Ozai banished Ursa ("Your mother did vicious, treasonous things that night. She knew the consequences and accepted them. For her treason, she was banished"). If he didn't want to lose her, all he had to do was frame some schmuck for the assassination, or just pretend it wasn't an assassination (which he did anyway).

Ozai grew to resent Zuko for what happened, eventually going so far as to challenge him to an Agni Kai and permanently scar him forever, then banish him forever on a Snipe Hunt over the most ridiculous and silly of sleights, all out of misplaced blame for that terrible night. He despised Zuko, all while continuing to shower blatant favoritism and pride on Azula; respecting her so much that he would even be willing to allow Zuko to return to the Fire Nation on her word that he totally should, and accept her claims that Zuko killed the Avatar without question because she said it.

As said above, this robs Ozai of all agency and comes off as rampant apologia given that he banished Ursa. No thanks.

I'll admit, the canon sometimes confuses me. Zuko says on the one hand his father says he was lucky to be born, indicating to me a longtime dismissal and contempt, yet he also speaks of a good time in the past. Does the TV series itself state the when and where of how the family drifted apart, if they were ever together to start with? My main thing is, did Azulon know of how his son viewed his grandson, or was he so detached from knowing Ozai that he didn't realize that killing Zuko was either meaningless or desirable to him?

An oddity, and if anyone knows otherwise, correct me, but I don't think there was a single scene where Iroh spoke to Ozai, and except for Zuko's scarring flashback, where they were even in the same scene together.

...

IROH IS OZAI!

It's the real reason why he wouldn't fight when Sozin's Comet came: he couldn't be in two places at once! And the whole thing about Lu Ten? That was just an identity crisis and a figment of his imagination!

edited 16th Mar '14 10:56:41 PM by wanderlustwarrior

Wow - I was really trying hard to avoid that joke.

I'll admit, the canon sometimes confuses me. Zuko says on the one hand his father says he was lucky to be born, indicating to me a longtime dismissal and contempt, yet he also speaks of a good time in the past. Does the TV series itself state the when and where of how the family drifted apart, if they were ever together to start with? My main thing is, did Azulon know of how his son viewed his grandson, or was he so detached from knowing Ozai that he didn't realize that killing Zuko was either meaningless or desirable to him?

I'm not sure we're meant to believe the family was ever happy, just that Zuko was remembering the good days before Ozai's mistreatment became constant.

As far as I can tell from The Beach, all of the positive memories we see from Zuko were of his vacations on Ember Island. The "Ozai saved Zuko from the ocean" thing happened there, too, per The Promise.

It seems plausible that Ozai put up a public front like he really cared about his son, and only mistreated him in the privacy of his family's quarters in the castle... which little Zuko could probably misinterpret as daddy loving him. That would explain Azulon thinking that Ozai cared about Zuko, too.

It's not apologia. It's treating Ozai like a goddamn human being, someone who has made choices and been molded by experiences throughout his life, and not an Evil Creature made of Evil who does Evil things For the Evulz with no rhyme or reason or motivation other than Evil. The show presented the idea of Ozai as a man, one with terrible flaws, but a man nonetheless. The comic presented Ozai as a rapist genocidal monster who was always evil and never had a single ounce of soul or humanity in him at all. The show's Ozai was a despicable man, but the comic's Ozai is just a soulless abomination, utterly devoid of life, who exists just to do evil things to drive the plot forward.

I'll take an evil man over a mindless Plot Device monster any day.

edited 17th Mar '14 2:18:09 PM by TobiasDrake

No, you pretty much just said that "Ozai couldn't help but be a jerk 10 years later because of something someone else did so that he wouldn't have to, saving him from having to make a decision on how to face the repercussions of his own actions. His actions weren't important, but the trauma he experienced that was put on him by others was."

I never once said his actions weren't important. His decision to try and make a grab for his brother's birthright as Firelord is what set everything in motion to begin with. My point is not, "Ozai is a victim and was a pure good saint forever!" My point is, "These events were a defining point that molded him into the man he became."

Understanding a character is not the same as justifying that character. If that were true, then sympathetic villains wouldn't exist at all, and I'm not even claiming that Ozai is sympathetic, because he's not; I'm claiming that he, like every other human who has ever existed, is a product of his life, the events that have happened to him, and the choices he has made. That he didn't go straight from cradle to genocide.

I am not trying to say that Ozai bears no responsibility for anything that ever transpired. I am trying to say that this event was a major event that played a heavy role in developing him in the direction he went down, and not just another day in the life of an evil bastard, no different from any other day of evil.

edited 17th Mar '14 2:47:55 PM by TobiasDrake

It's not apologia. It's treating Ozai like a goddamn human being, someone who has made choices and been molded by experiences throughout his life, and not an Evil Creature made of Evil who does Evil things For the Evulz with no rhyme or reason or motivation other than Evil. The show presented the idea of Ozai as a man, one with terrible flaws, but a man nonetheless. The comic presented Ozai as a rapist genocidal monster who was always evil and never had a single ounce of soul or humanity in him at all. The show's Ozai was a despicable man, but the comic's Ozai is just a soulless abomination, utterly devoid of life, who exists just to do evil things to drive the plot forward.

I'll take an evil man over a mindless Plot Device monster any day.

I'd like to point out that, given that sociopaths are goshdarn human beings in real life, treating Ozai like one isn't treating him like something inhuman. =P

Ozai doesn't need to be "an Evil Creature made of Evil who does Evil things For the Evulz with no rhyme or reason or motivation other than Evil" to do the things he does. All he needs is to be highly ambitious and entirely lacking in conscience... both of which are traits that exist in real-life sociopaths.

The show was the thing that treated him as a genocidal monster. The marital rapist thing is entirely implied rather than explicit (I'm not entirely sure we're meant to think that much about what an unwanted arranged marriage implies, to be honest), and that sort of thing was, unfortunately, probably common enough when arranged marriages were customary that it's hard to say that it suggests anything worse about his character than his attempt to immolate an entire continent and his action in burning his own son's face off already did.

The show's Ozai was painted entirely in broad strokes, but it didn't give him much in the way of motivation. The comics turned him into the sort of person who wouldn't seem entirely out of place in a Game of Thrones-style dark fantasy setting, but his actions could all be explained by his Social Darwinist philosophy (which is not out of line with what real people have sometimes thought when they lack the conscience to realize why it's wrong) and his need for control over his life and the people in it. Saying that he's there to do evil things to drive the plot forward is simply not a fair assessment, regardless of his lack of Freudian Excuse.

I never once said his actions weren't important. His decision to try and make a grab for his brother's birthright as Firelord is what set everything in motion to begin with. My point is not, "Ozai is a victim and was a pure good saint forever!" My point is, "These events were a defining point that molded him into the man he became."

Understanding a character is not the same as justifying that character. If that were true, then sympathetic villains wouldn't exist at all, and I'm not even claiming that Ozai is sympathetic, because he's not; I'm claiming that he, like every other human who has ever existed, is a product of his life, the events that have happened to him, and the choices he has made. That he didn't go straight from cradle to genocide.

I am not trying to say that Ozai bears no responsibility for anything that ever transpired. I am trying to say that this event was a major event that played a heavy role in developing him in the direction he went down, and not just another day in the life of an evil bastard, no different from any other day of evil.

What you need to understand is that, by insisting that Ozai is defined by what happened between Ursa and Azulon, you're implying that he was a better person before that event. And that is entirely unsupported by canon.

I'm all for understanding characters. But I don't think there's any point to creating an artificial understanding of a character who's clearly intended to be a simple villain — making random stuff up comes off as apologia just as much when it's done for the sake of "understanding" as it does when it's done for the sake of justification. You don't want to understand canon!Ozai; you just want to replace him with your ideal Ozai.

And, for all you say you're about understanding characters, you seem entirely unwilling to understand a character who's intended to be a sociopath. It's not about doing evil stuff for him; it's about failing to care what effects his actions have on others.

While I do think the comics amped it up (as they have for some tendencies in characters) Ozai gets to be a bit two-dimensional because again, he is the end product of generations of celebrated and encouraged sociopathy. He is what the FN royals were building towards, whether they knew it or not. To paraphrase The Comedian, the Fire Nation Dream came true, and we were looking at it embodied as FL.

edited 18th Mar '14 3:33:45 AM by Gojirob

The show did give Ozai a motivation. The same motivation it gave Azulon, Azula, Zuko, all the way back to Sozin. The Fire Nation was an imperialist culture, blinded by its own love of itself. The justification the show gave for the war was, "We are spreading our great culture to the world." Zuko even throws this right back in Ozai's face in his big "Screw you, I'm leaving!" speech.

It's the same rationale that other imperialist nations such as Great Britain have used throughout history; my culture is awesome, and the only reason you can't accept how awesome my culture is, is because your incompetent savage mind is too primitive to recognize true civilization for what it is. Rest assured, give it a few generations after we've conquered you, you'll come around.

The Fire Nation operates on cultural narcissism and egotistical racism, and commits terrible atrocities based on that premise. Claiming that the conflict existed just because Ozai is a sociopath completely ignores the culture and environment that created him. Ozai isn't the One True Villain of the war; he's carrying on a proud tradition of war, conquest, and horror passed down by his father and his grandfather before him. Ozai himself is a product of the culture and events that molded him to be just as much a warmongering bastard as those Firelords previous.

The true evil of Avatar isn't Ozai. It's the Fire Nation's way of life, the ideal that Might Makes Right as embodied in the Agni Kai, the willful ignorance that other cultures and lifestyles deserve to exist, etc. Ozai is a cruel bastard, but he's a symptom, not the disease.

edited 18th Mar '14 7:39:34 AM by TobiasDrake

Once again you're robbing Ozai of agency in plans that directly involved him. It's like saying "it's not his fault, his country made him evil." In addition, you earlier said "He's traumatized because he lost his father and wife, and could've lost his son." However, consider:

• Once he became Fire Lord, he was in the best possible position to change the culture, and chose not to.
• He lost his father because of his own scheming. He could've lost his son because of his own blind and evil ambition. He risked his son because of same.
• Iroh grew up in the same culture and became a vaunted war general. Who better would understand the Fire Nation's "might makes right" mentality? He lost his son and father because of plans he wasn't privy to, and presumably lost his wife in the future, and he's no more "traumatized". You shouldn't easily claim trauma for someone who was actively involved in the situation.

Zuko was morally conflicted. Sozin, the instigator of the war, was momentarily conflicted and even then started with colonies instead of solely pursuing occupation and genocide. Azulon at least valued loss and family, at least in finding Ozai's statement and plans for the throne reprehensible. Azula was coldhearted mainly to please Ozai and no one else (clearly not her mother or teachers). It isn't just the culture, especially not in the royal family. People are accountable for their actions and statements.

edited 18th Mar '14 9:57:45 AM by wanderlustwarrior

All three of your bullet points are true. Ozai is both a product of and an active contributor in the Fire Nation's oppressive culture. Iroh was also a product of the Fire Nation's culture, and he's just as traumatized by his experiences as Ozai. Where Ozai became a resentful ball of hatred, Iroh took a step back and asked the hard questions about whether or not their cause is really worth all the pain and misery it brings both to their enemies and to themselves.

I never claimed Iroh hadn't suffered. Quite the contrary, if Iroh was not traumatized by his experiences in the war and the loss of his son, he would have gone on being the great general of the Fire Nation, and may never have formed his Surrogate Parent relationship with Zuko. Ozai dealt with his loss by bottling his pain and despising the person he decided was at fault for it in order to avoid blaming himself, and burying himself waist-deep in their imperial culture. Iroh dealt with his by finding a Replacement Goldfish, and re-examining their imperial culture from a new perspective.

Sozin was conflicted but he still made his choices, as did Azula. Azulon valued loss and family, but was still a cruel enough man that he would order the death of his grandson as penance for his son's crimes. People are accountable for their actions and statements, but those people don't spring fully-formed from Zeus's foreheard; they are defined by actions and events that influenced them; by the choices they made, and the choices made for and against them, that have shaped their past.

My point is not, and has never been, that Ozai shares no responsibility for any of the terrible things he's done. Yes, his country, his upbringing, and the events that have happened to and because of him made him evil. By the end of the series, he is a cruel, genocidal man who has given up on the entire "sharing our great culture" notion in favor of exterminating anyone who is not a part of the Fire Nation and just expanding their one nation. The question is not, "Is he a bad man?" The answer to that is obvious. The question is, "WHY is he a bad man?" I have NEVER said that he beared no responsibility, and I feel that's where this argument is coming from.

I also did not say he was traumatized because he lost his father and wife and could have lost his son; I said he was traumatized because he lost his father and wife BECAUSE he didn't lose his son. His failure to act one way or the other resulted in an arguably more tragic outcome, and he blamed his son for continuing to exist. Failure to act is still an action; if he had killed Zuko, or if he had taken his family and run, he might still have his wife, his father, AND his son. By his own admission, as has been pointed out repeatedly by Ikkin, he would have killed Zuko. The right choice always seems obvious in hindsight; that Ozai, on reflection, considers that to have been the right choice speaks volumes about the contempt he has developed for Zuko.

I make no attempt to say that Ozai is an innocent victim of all this. In fact, if anything, I would call Ozai a coward. He went behind his brother's back to try and get him disinherited from the throne without having to face his brother directly. He did so with a half-baked excuse that appealed to fear - Iroh has no successor so what happens if he dies without siring one? - rather than the strength and pride that the Fire Nation is built on. He refused to stand up to his father when he gave him a terrible command, and it wound up being his wife that took a hard and dangerous action, not him.

All indications of the young Ozai are of a spineless sycophant suckling at the royal teat, jealously envying his brother's prestige and talent, utterly convinced of his own greatness yet unwilling to take the necessary action to test it. A jealous little brother who lacks the courage to step out of Iroh's shadow the hard way, and instead tries to weasel his way around ever having to. Ozai's cowardice, Azulon's retribution, Ursa's desperate act to protect her son, Ozai's failure to take action one way or the other that could have prevented Ursa from having to, and Ozai's emotional handling of this awful experience, all combined to produce the cruel and resentful Ozai that brutally scarred Zuko over a ridiculous sleight and then banished him forever.

edited 18th Mar '14 11:15:00 AM by TobiasDrake