Revan is still alive, and is back to being Revan.
Nobody knows what he went to do, so who is to say he didn't go to regain his memories, but Darth Revan took back over afterwords? He could be leading the new Sith. After all, who better to lead the new army of Sith but the greatest?
- Semi-confirmed in the Revan novel. Revan is back to using his old name, but is actually trying a preemptive strike at the Sith Empire.
Kreia's Plan was not to kill the Force.
Or at least that wasn't the only possible outcome.
Kreia had been both a Sith and a Jedi, and hated both. The solution? Destroy them and create a new, stronger version of each. The Exile trains his/her crew to become the new Jedi Order, and by the end of the game, the old one is all dead, all killed at the hands of either Kreia or her pawn (you). Same with the Sith.
Since she was part of both the old Jedi and the old Sith, the end of her plan has her dying. And if the plan fails, she just kills the Force.
The Vaklu Sergeant who says, "The loyalists in the bunker are contained," is Palpatine's distant ancestor.
- Palpatine inherited the overconfidence.
- Alternatively, his surname is Tarkin.
R2-D2 is T3-M4 in a new body four thousand years later.
It happened to HK-47, at least in Star Wars: Galaxies, so we know that a droid AI could survive that long. And it would explain why R2's so quirky and creative; he's had four thousand years to craft a personality for himself. It's also why he stays around C-3PO, because he sees shades of HK-47 in him, and he wants a familiar figure in his life—after all, he's seen all his friends and acquaintances die around him. The Force had a special destiny for R2, passing from Revan's ownership, to the Exile's, and, after millenia, to Anakin Skywalker...and to his son.
- HK-47 does show up in Galaxies. And it would be terribly funny if this were the case. Talk about "seen it all."
- I'd buy it, except for the part about HK being anything like Threepio. Seriously, the only things they have in common are 'droid' and 'bipedal'.
- Possibly jossed- According to material from The Old Republic, T3-M4 was completely destroyed and disintegrated, which leaves almost no chance for his AI to survive.
Revan didn't avoid production centers to save The Republic, he did it to prevent his own ass from getting kicked latter
You are a pretty bad conqueror if you get toppled right after you finish your conquest after all.
- Po-tay-to, po-tah-to. He counted conquering the Republic and leading it against the Sith Empire as saving it.
Kreia was using her mind control abilities on everyone, player included, to make her plan work.
This is pretty obvious just by paying attention to the plot. She hides right out in the open, and no one ever really notices or does anything about her. She joins up with the Exile, makes a Psychic Link
between them, and suddenly the Exile becomes very open to her advice. Anyone she talks to (Atton, Mandalore, Hanharr, Tobin, Sion) ends up doing what she advises, even though a lot of them clearly hate her. You can ask her
if she's manipulating you like this, and if you don't buy her denial she suddenly stops talking about it and you drop the subject. Now that I think about it, this actually makes too much sense to be a WMG.
- Not exactly. She tends to use blackmail and lies just as often. She does use her 'Force Selective Perception' on the Jedi Masters, the Exile and the Disciple, but blackmail on Atton (I'll tell the Exile your big secret/I'll send you on a murderous rampage) and Mandalore (I know why the one you hero-worship abandoned you). Tobin she outright lied to. Hanharr had the life-debt thing going on. Sion hated Kriea and wanted to destroy everything she cared for, but for all the power he had amassed was incapable of beating her.
It is pretty clear she realizes how experience points work. The page for A Wizard Did It
notes that her desire to kill The Force is basically an attempt to kill the writers. She notes how little her removed hand effects her, in game mechanics for a pure caster the ability to dual wield is insignificant (The player can make good use of the additional stats boost crystals they can put in their lightsabers, but there are not enough crystals in the game to do it for anyone else).
- She clearly rolled for stats.
- Reading between the lines reveals much of the story to be a huge Deconstruction of RPG mechanics. Kriea and the Jedi Masters seem to be familiar with the cause and effect, but not at the meta level.
1. Think about it. That misplaced Reverend Mother knows an awful lot about the True Sith. In fact, she's the only one who knows anything
about them at all. Perhaps she's one of them?
2. Revan is considered this mastermind of strategy, tactics, and manipulation...but look who trained Revan (probably from early childhood, considering the Order's policy at the time). If what she does — or tries to do — to your Exile is bad, imagine her with a VERY bright Force prodigy from the age of 5 to about the age of 20.
3. If there were anything about the Rakatans, the Star Forge, the True Sith, etc. in the Jedi archives, she would have been in prime position to steal and/or delete it. Then, turn it over to her prized pupil.
4. Canderous mentions that "The Sith" came to Mandalore the Indomitable with the offer of a battle to beat them all, essentially leading them into suicide. The Jedi Order splinters apart, and the Force is wounded in multiple places from all this. This sets into motion the Force wounds like Exile and Malachor, critical to Kreia's plan to wreck the Force.
So, we have the Mandalorians betrayed by the Sith, the Jedi Order betraying its own lofty ideals, Revan betraying the Jedi Council. Exile betraying Revan by refusing to go along, Revan repaying the favor with a suicide mission to Malachor, the Council
betraying Exile, and Revan betraying the Republic, taking a lot of guys like Saul and Atton along. That's one hell of a case of Chronic Backstabbing Disorder
. And what is Kreia, but the self-described "Queen of Betrayal?"
5. Revan may have been trying to aid Kreia in this Force-wrecking mission.
- Kreia herself admits she's no leader. To get what she wants, she finds someone who can be that leader and manipulate them for all she's worth.
- There was a line from the prequels that after 1000 years of Jedi domination, the Force had become weakened, and that a "balance" was needed. It would seem that if you tilt to balance of the Force too far one way or another, it gets weak. Weaken it, create the right echoes ("Wounds," as the second game describes), and it is theoretically possible to kill it. Since it's much faster and more feasible to plunge the galaxy into Darkness than drag it into Light, Revan went Sith.
- There was a distinct pattern to Revan's attacks, targeting Jedi strongholds, and planets with a lot of Sensitives. Mical discovered this pattern, only to be immediately mind-raped by Kreia into forgetting what he found out.
- Atton also points out that Revan's strategy was to convert Jedi, and to kill them only if/when conversion was no option. "whoever had the most Force users would win this."
- Likewise, Revan also left the infrastructure intact, all the better for Force-deaf survivors to pick up the pieces.
- Malak was definitely not in on it. Revan decided to see if Malak had the capability to see the big picture when telling him to take Telos. Telos was a planet the Jedi were going to use for refuge, and crawling with Force Sentitives that weren't Jedi material, but might make the cut for Dark Jedi or interrogators like Atton. There was also the matter of military hardware to obtain, and Telos being on a strategic hyperspace route. Malak demonstrated a complete lack of subtlety or forethought by blasting the planet to ash, ruining all of the things Revan wanted from the planet, granting the Sith a pyrrhic victory, and giving the Republic an atrocity to rally behind. Needless to say, Revan was NOT impressed, and was shopping for a new apprentice, leaving Malak little choice but to pull that sneak attack. Malak's attack saved the Force, but doomed the GFFA to endless Jedi/Sith warfare.
- The True Sith thing has turned out to be completely true. The original Sith Empire, as opposed to her own former cabal and Revan's version, do indeed return and wage war on the Republic centuries after the first two games (setting up the MMO).
Revan's "true personality" is a Dark Jedi, and the "canon ending" should be with him in charge of the Sith.
Think about it for a moment. He's been mind raped by the Jedi. Many of his memories have been restored. The woman he's force bonded with (and the one who is his force guide and bond to the light side) has been corrupted. The Sith are winning. And now you can claim the Star Forge and finish your plans from the past. Revan isn't loyal to the Jedi, he's loyal to the future, to the survival of the races of the galaxy. Siding with the losing Jedi and Republic makes no sense, whereas seizing control of the Star Forge and using Bastila's Battle Meditation to get a quick, mostly painless victory is logical, practical and completely in line with what we know of Revan's personality from before the mind rape.
Also, Darth Bastila is hot and completely loyal to you. What would you choose - black leather or starchy cotton and itchy wool?
- Some of us will take the hot pilot in the orange jacket or the nice lesbian catgirl. Neither of which will go along with the Dark Side thing
- Doubtful in my eye. If Kreia is to be believed (a dangerous assumption, but I believe she was earnest in this case) Revan was in an inherently good person and did not "fall" to the dark side but made a conscious choice, seeing it as being the lesser of two evils. By the end of KotOR1 Revan recalled very little of his previous life, including his original motives for becoming a Sith Lord. Without this knowledge, the amnesiac Revan simply presumed that he had "fallen" and was leading the Sith for no reason beyond being an evil bastard.
Darth Sion is the crazy captain of the Icarus I
Just look at him. He's got no skin, he's bald, he's a complete nutcase, and he picks people up by the throat. Clearly he survived falling into the Sun with EPIC FORCAGE, escaped, and joined the Sith Triumvirate.
Kreia ultimately succeeded. The Force has been dying a slow death for thousands of years.
Compare the abilities and powers of the Jedi and Sith in the Knights of the Old Republic
games to what they're successors can do in the movies 4000 years later.
When the most powerfull Force users in the galaxy are capable of no more than level 2 Force lightning and some telekinesis, it tells you a lot about the state their batteries must be in.
- My counter-argument is: Kyle Katarn. The only character in the canon that could even conceivably beat Revan in a stand-up fight.
- I'll see you a Kyle Katarn, and raise you a Galen Marek. The man who kicked the shit out of Vader and pulled a Star Destroyer out of orbit.
- I call your Galen Marek. He was a child of two Jedi, so he had way more power than a normal Jedi. Even then, it took his full focus to pull that Star Destroyer down from low altitude. And the rest of his foes? We see Revan overpowering rancors on the Rakata world and smashing big battle droids even easier than Galen. Malak could wipe the floor of his observation deck with Vader. And they, while strong by their time's standards, weren't that exceptional, and had no Jedi heritage.
Nihlus is actually The Pyro
Eventually, after years of battle The Pyro figured out how to set things on fire with his mind, using The Force. Pyrokinesis requires a lot of force energy to use, so she takes to consuming entire planet's worth of life in order to try and sustain his ability. He doesn't use it in-game because she doesn't have enough force energy at that point.
Kreia is Arren Kae, the Jedi Master who was Revan's first and last teacher
An old theory, but should be here for posterity's sake. Kreia is also indirectly mentioned to be Revan's first and last teacher; she looks very similar to the Handmaiden, Arren Kae's daughter; Arren Kae was thought to have died at Malachor V with no body found (but surely No-One Could Have Survived That
,) and the Jedi masters say they thought Kreia died at Malachor V, etc. An entire chapter
of a Let's Play for this game is dedicated to pointing out a whole sequence of events practically done in the style of the offhand comments in the first game that turned out to be the hints for Revan's true nature; given Obsidian's usual style, it's pretty likely these are intentional.
- Counterpoint: Arren Kae is explicitly stated to have gone to the Mandalorian Wars and died (okay, "died") there. However, Revan and Malak are equally explicitly said to have gone to said war over the objections of their masters. Also, they are the most prominent Jedi to do so, which is unlikely to be the case if their teacher runs off with them.
- Counter-counterpoint: "Gone to war over the objection of their masters" doesn’t explicitly mean their direct teachers. The Jedi order has a hierarchy, and the members Jedi Council are regarded in status of authority as masters over the other Jedi. Also, there may be some group lessons, like we saw in Episode II with Yoda teaching the younglings, that may account for numerous Jedi having a former “master” or “teacher” that trained them before their Padawan years (this is what Obi-Wan meant in the OT when he referred to Yoda as having taught him, despite us seeing Obi-Wan as Qui-Gon’s apprentice in Episode I).
- Also, it's funny you should mention Arren Kae is dead. What was the first thing the Jedi masters said when seeing Kreia?
- Chris Avellone's word on this one is "Can't comment, but good catch. Sorry."
Old woman, poor eyesight who's a Blind Seer
, sharp-tongued, Trickster Mentor
, fond of the Breaking Speech
, puzzles, riddles, and has a definitive 'bond' with the main character. Not to mention that both are created by Chris Avellone
, who has claimed that incarnations of Ravel follow these general tendencies.
Kreia is not Arren Kae
She is Arren Kae's mother, and thus the Handmaiden's grandmother. (INSERT REASONINGS HERE)
The fight on Revan's flagship with Bastila and the Jedi striketeam is shown in Revan's visions, but we don't see any of the details of Revan being healed and revived.
For Male Revan, Carth represents recovering from trauma, loyalty, and leadership without tyranny, Juhani represents the wish for love and the possibility of redemption, and Bastila represents goodness and compassion. For Female Revan, Carth represents love and its redemptive power, Juhani adds acceptance of and overcoming one's past choices, and Bastila represents the struggle inherent in living up to the Jedi ideal. For both genders of Revan, Jolee represents perspective and wisdom apart from the dictates of moral guardians, Canderous is the love of war as a challenge, creative outlet, and expression of mastery, Mission and Zaalbar represent friendship, loyalty, and resilience, Darth Bastila represents the emptiness of good intentions in the face of evil and resentment toward the Jedi order, and Darth Malak represents mastery, unconditional dominance, and betrayal by one's close associates
Carth Onasi is Force-Sensitive, but not trained
- His rantings come off as paranoid, but they turn out to be absolutely true. He senses right off the bat there's something strange about the Player Character and that the details aren't adding up for him. He is pissed off because he can sense the Jedi are leading them on - and three for three, he's dead on. On some level, he might be able to sense something "off" about the Player Character, but hasn't the training or the knowledge to put the pieces together.
- What are the odds of surviving the massacre on the Endar Spire, just happening to share the last escape pod with an amnesiac ex-Sith Lord, crash-landing in what passes for the "good" part of town, staying uninjured, rescuing the intermittently-conscious Player Character without getting caught by the Sith, and happening to find a dump of an apartment where the landlord is not asking questions? That's a hell of a set of long shots, and when we've got that many coincidences attached to one person, in the GFFA, The Force is definitely involved.
- The improbable landing he made on Lehon, where the Ebon Hawk ended up mostly intact. There are also the random encounters of Sith patrols, the blockade of Taris, the escape from the Leviathan, and running the gauntlet to get to the Star Forge. Compare to Atton who is known to be Force-lit and an excellent pilot...yet still crashed the damn ship three times.
- He remarks that he "knows" on some level that he will be present when Saul Karath is killed or do it himself. Guess what? He's right here at the moment Saul dies and at least partly involved in his death.
- If you play female, his last conversation before the Leviathan has him telling the Player Character that he senses the Jedi have left them out to hang, and that she'll "have to make a choice very soon" as to her future, one she can't turn away from. If she chooses the Light Side, he blurts out "I sensed you would have to make a choice very soon, and that was it, I can feel it."
- In the second game, he flat-out tells the Exile that "he would know" if Revan died, despite Revan being half a galaxy away. If you say Revan was female, he also says that there's "an emptiness where she used to be."
- Also in Knights Of The Old Republic II The Sith Lords, if you specify a female Revan, T3-M4 carries a holo from Carth- he's had a premonition that Revan is about to leave without warning. He was right.
- At Ajunta Pal's tomb, the only two non-Jedi party members who comment on seeing the Sith ghost are Carth and HK-47. HK remarks that he detects something strange on his sensors. Carth can not only see the ghost, but understand what he's saying.
- Expanded Universe says this is not the first time he's encountered a Jedi coverup. He ran into Zayne Carrick and helped Zayne escape from both Saul Karath and the Jedi authorities because he "knew" the kid was innocent.
- Also in the KotOR comics, When Zayne recieves a vision that allows him to accurately predict the Mandalorians' bombardment of Serroco, Zayne tries in vain to give Karath and the Republic fleet advanced warning of the attack to allow them to defend the civilian alien population of the planet. When no one else takes him seriously (Zayne's friends blow him off. Karath, convinced that Zayne is a Mandalorian spy, has him thrown in the brig.) Carth calls a tornado warning in to as many weather stations on the planet as he can reach, causing many of the natives to evacuate to underground bunkers and escape the worst of the blitz.
- Telos is where the Jedi dumped Force-Sensitives that didn't make the cut for Padawan status. The Telosians are decended from those washouts. We know that Force sensitivity strongly runs In the Blood. We know Carth is a native of Telos. And we saw what happened to Carth's son.
Like Revan and Bastila, Carth and Revan are Force-bonded
- KotOR 2 establishes that Force-bonds are most likely to suddenly between Force-sensitive people in life-threatening situations. See above for the evidence of Carth's force sensitivity. Being among a handful of survivors of a Sith-boarded cruiser and having Carth haul the Player Character's intermittently-conscious butt into hiding from a crashed escape pod on a blockaded, heavily-patrolled world probably counts as sufficiently life-threatening.
- Carth's (uncannily accurate) instincts about the weirdness of the Player Character's situation and predictions of his/her behavior hint that they share some kind of unusual connection. Despite sporting paranoia as a defining characteristic, Carth comes to trust him/her implicitly, spilling his entire life story and assuming a female Revan, falling in love with her, even after figuring out that, in a former life, Revan was the primary force behind the destruction of his home planet, the death of his wife and disappearance of his son, which engendered all of that mulishly paranoid behavior to begin with. if you play Dark side and female, he will make a last-ditch attempt to turn you back, saying that he loves you and doesn't care about all of the horrible things you've done. All of this becomes more probable if you assume the kind of empathy and influence that mark a Force-bond.
- In KotOR 2, The Jedi Master on Nar Shaadaa tells the Exile that to break a Force-bond, "your feelings would have to change, or one of you would have to die— but even then, the bond wouldn't go away, it would simply be empty, a wound." Later in the game if you've set Revan to light-side female, an obviously distraught Carth asserts that he would know if Revan (who has absconded to the Unknown Regions) were dead, and that "there's this emptiness where she used to be."
Kyle Katarn is the descendant of Revan and Bastila.
Revan's alias after losing his memory was Kobet Katarn, and shortly before Revan's departure and imprisonment, he and Bastila Shan secretly got married and had a child. After Revan's imprisonment by the Sith Emperor, Bastila took care of Revan's son, Vaner Shan, whose descendants eventually took the "Katarn" surname after Revan's alias. Eventually, their family line led to the Jedi Master Tal—who, like Revan, had children who were sent into hiding—and even further still, Morgan and Kyle Katarn. This also explains how Kyle was so susceptible to the dark energy of the Sith temple on Dromund Kaas, which most likely contained the spirit of the Sith Emperor, who recognized Kyle as Revan's descendant and tried to corrupt him as he did Revan. Kyle was eventually rescued from the Sith Emperor's thrall by Mara Jade. After the dark side ending to Jedi Knight, Kyle—now the new Emperor—would take up his ancestor's mantle and proclaim himself the new Darth Revan.
When I heard Freyyr describe the terentatek as a creature only a few survived an encounter with to be able to describe and nobody having succeeded in killing, I braced myself for quite a tough fight, but then it went down rather easily. Ha, I thought smugly, some beast, I can't believe nobody killed it before me. And then I spent about half an hour battling with the terentatek-gas-cloud-causes-the-game-to-crash bug, finally having to give up and go down the dark side path with this quest. Apparently, in my version of the game noone was ever able to kill this terentatek because its death immediately obliterates that version of the universe where it happened.
The Player Character
in the first game is constantly unconsciously using the Force to sway people's decisions.
Of course these lightsaber-toting robe-wearing individuals are your slaves
and definitely not Jedi
. That makes perfect sense. Come on in!
Vrook is himself a Sith Lord.
The fall of Dantooine shattered his mind and he fell to the dark side after the events of KOTOR, becoming a puppet master of the Jedi Council in KOTOR II.
- If you help him leave his cell, he blames you for an upcoming mercenary assault on Khoonda. If you leave him in his cell, then save the colony, he attacks you out of Anger, giving you no option but to defend yourself.
- If you side with the mercenaries, he doesn't actually care, meaning he was only ever siding with the colony to keep up appearances.
- Unlike Zez-Kai Ell, whose motivations for not pursuing the Sith are purely out of fear, which he admits, Vrook has no such reason, so why doesn't he work against the Sith? He wants them to succeed.
- Both the other Jedi Masters you talk to are both friendly, apologetic and repentant for their actions. Then they meet up with Vrook, and suddenly have a Face-Heel Turn, following Vrook's policy of allowing the Sith to proceed unchecked. Coincidence? No, Vrook talked them into it with a mixture of subtle deceit and force-fuelled mind control using his superior Consular powers. Even if you attempt to excise this corrupting influence, his shadowy machinations extend so far that his two stooges are tricked into thinking that you attacked Vrook, not the other way round, and fight you themselves.
The appearance of a Selkath on the video game box cover was the result of an error.
Why would Malak and Bastila be on the cover alongside a random Selkath? Throughout the course of the game, you don't have any Selkath companions, nor are they extremely integral to the plot. The obvious reason is because someone wanted CARTH Onasi on the cover, and the artist misheard it as 'Put a Selkath on the cover'. By the time the error was discovered, it was too late to change it.
- Or it could be that they were too lazy to change the cover after editing. Bastila on the cover doesn't look like the game version.
Darth Traya is actually one of the Ones
specifically The Mother
She lies alot and The Entity which one of the writers of The Old Republic claims to be Darth Traya is claimed by Darth Vowrawn to be as old as The Force itself and the only ones that match that description are the Ones and since we've seen The Father, The Daughter and The Son the only one left for Traya to be is The Mother who embodies The Void. Why she lies about being Revan's master is obvious: She wants to decieve the Exile who's ability to survive without The Force interests her. Of course she is apparently smart enough to teach Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus how to become unique Dark Side abominations that only the Sith Emperor(who seems to be a bigger manifestaion of The Dark Side than Darth Sidious) surpasses.
- It also seems she ran afoul with the Jedi once and had some of her students corrupted by them(easy to immagine considering how they put age restrictions on initiates only after Darth Bane) and judging from Master Vrook's words Revan was one of them. It also seems as if she faked her death during the Mandalorian Wars as well(which leads one to suspect that her battle with the Exile was just a means to fake her death a second time).