WMG / Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Kreia's Plan was not to kill the Force.

Or at least that wasn't the only possible outcome. Kreia had been both a Sith and a Jedi, and hated both. The solution? Destroy them and create a new, stronger version of each. The Exile trains his/her crew to become the new Jedi Order, and by the end of the game, the old one is all dead, all killed at the hands of either Kreia or her pawn (you). Same with the Sith. Since she was part of both the old Jedi and the old Sith, the end of her plan has her dying. And if the plan fails, she just kills the Force.

• In line with this, Kreia's real goal was to prove the superiority of her style of Force-usage. She has the Exile gather the Jedi Council while training them so she can show off the Exile as the "right" way to be a Jedi. She wanted to prove that her teachings weren't flawed, to make the Council admit she wasn't to blame for Revan's fall because it wasn't a fall. She wanted to have them validate her ideas regarding moral relativism and subtle manipulation (because what is teaching but trying to get someone to think and act like you want them to?). When that failed due to the Jedi's fears and obstinacy, she goes for the back up plan. If every Force user in the galaxy is dead but her students and their students, she wins the debate by default. So she lures the Exile to Telos where they will have to stop Atris and Nihilus, who she originally wanted to kill Atris. Then she threatens the Force itself to bring the Exile to Malachor so they will wipe out the rest of the Sith and her, leaving her teachings the only ones left in the galaxy.

The Vaklu Sergeant who says, "The loyalists in the bunker are contained," is Palpatine's distant ancestor.

>_>

• Palpatine inherited the overconfidence.
  • Alternatively, his surname is Tarkin.

Kreia was using her mind control abilities on everyone, player included, to make her plan work.

This is pretty obvious just by paying attention to the plot. She hides right out in the open, and no one ever really notices or does anything about her. She joins up with the Exile, makes a Psychic Link between them, and suddenly the Exile becomes very open to her advice. Anyone she talks to (Atton, Mandalore, Hanharr, Tobin, Sion) ends up doing what she advises, even though a lot of them clearly hate her. You can ask her if she's manipulating you like this, and if you don't buy her denial she suddenly stops talking about it and you drop the subject. Now that I think about it, this actually makes too much sense to be a WMG.

• Not exactly. She tends to use blackmail and lies just as often. She does use her 'Force Selective Perception' on the Jedi Masters, the Exile and the Disciple, but blackmail on Atton (I'll tell the Exile your big secret/I'll send you on a murderous rampage) and Mandalore (I know why the one you hero-worship abandoned you). Tobin she outright lied to. Hanharr had the life-debt thing going on. Sion hated Kriea and wanted to destroy everything she cared for, but for all the power he had amassed was incapable of beating her.

Kreia is aware she is a videogame character or at least knows the game mechanics.

It is pretty clear she realizes how experience points work. The page for A Wizard Did It notes that her desire to kill The Force is basically an attempt to kill the writers. She notes how little her removed hand effects her, in game mechanics for a pure caster the ability to dual wield is insignificant (The player can make good use of the additional stats boost crystals they can put in their lightsabers, but there are not enough crystals in the game to do it for anyone else).

• She clearly rolled for stats.
• Reading between the lines reveals much of the story to be a huge Deconstruction of RPG mechanics. Kriea and the Jedi Masters seem to be familiar with the cause and effect, but not at the meta level.

Kreia is either an Anti-Villain or an Unchosen One in the series, and might just outclass Sidious at dejarik

1. Think about it. That misplaced Reverend Mother knows an awful lot about the True Sith. In fact, she's the only one who knows anything about them at all. Perhaps she's one of them?

2. Revan is considered this mastermind of strategy, tactics, and manipulation...but look who trained Revan (probably from early childhood, considering the Order's policy at the time). If what she does — or tries to do — to your Exile is bad, imagine her with a VERY bright Force prodigy from the age of 5 to about the age of 20.

3. If there were anything about the Rakatans, the Star Forge, the True Sith, etc. in the Jedi archives, she would have been in prime position to steal and/or delete it. Then, turn it over to her prized pupil.

4. Canderous mentions that "The Sith" came to Mandalore the Indomitable with the offer of a battle to beat them all, essentially leading them into suicide. The Jedi Order splinters apart, and the Force is wounded in multiple places from all this. This sets into motion the Force wounds like Exile and Malachor, critical to Kreia's plan to wreck the Force.

So, we have the Mandalorians betrayed by the Sith, the Jedi Order betraying its own lofty ideals, Revan betraying the Jedi Council. Exile betraying Revan by refusing to go along, Revan repaying the favor with a suicide mission to Malachor, the Council betraying Exile, and Revan betraying the Republic, taking a lot of guys like Saul and Atton along. That's one hell of a case of Chronic Backstabbing Disorder. And what is Kreia, but the self-described "Queen of Betrayal?"

5. Revan may have been trying to aid Kreia in this Force-wrecking mission.

• Kreia herself admits she's no leader. To get what she wants, she finds someone who can be that leader and manipulate them for all she's worth.

• There was a line from the prequels that after 1000 years of Jedi domination, the Force had become weakened, and that a "balance" was needed. It would seem that if you tilt to balance of the Force too far one way or another, it gets weak. Weaken it, create the right echoes ("Wounds," as the second game describes), and it is theoretically possible to kill it. Since it's much faster and more feasible to plunge the galaxy into Darkness than drag it into Light, Revan went Sith.

• There was a distinct pattern to Revan's attacks, targeting Jedi strongholds, and planets with a lot of Sensitives. Mical discovered this pattern, only to be immediately mind-raped by Kreia into forgetting what he found out.

• Atton also points out that Revan's strategy was to convert Jedi, and to kill them only if/when conversion was no option. "whoever had the most Force users would win this."

• Likewise, Revan also left the infrastructure intact, all the better for Force-deaf survivors to pick up the pieces.

• Malak was definitely not in on it. Revan decided to see if Malak had the capability to see the big picture when telling him to take Telos. Telos was a planet the Jedi were going to use for refuge, and crawling with Force Sentitives that weren't Jedi material, but might make the cut for Dark Jedi or interrogators like Atton. There was also the matter of military hardware to obtain, and Telos being on a strategic hyperspace route. Malak demonstrated a complete lack of subtlety or forethought by blasting the planet to ash, ruining all of the things Revan wanted from the planet, granting the Sith a pyrrhic victory, and giving the Republic an atrocity to rally behind. Needless to say, Revan was NOT impressed, and was shopping for a new apprentice, leaving Malak little choice but to pull that sneak attack. Malak's attack saved the Force, but doomed the GFFA to endless Jedi/Sith warfare.

• The True Sith thing has turned out to be completely true. The original Sith Empire, as opposed to her own former cabal and Revan's version, do indeed return and wage war on the Republic centuries after the first two games (setting up the MMO).

Kreia ultimately succeeded. The Force has been dying a slow death for thousands of years.

Compare the abilities and powers of the Jedi and Sith in the Knights of the Old Republic games to what they're successors can do in the movies 4000 years later.When the most powerfull Force users in the galaxy are capable of no more than level 2 Force lightning and some telekinesis, it tells you a lot about the state their batteries must be in.

• My counter-argument is: Kyle Katarn. The only character in the canon that could even conceivably beat Revan in a stand-up fight.
• I'll see you a Kyle Katarn, and raise you a Galen Marek. The man who kicked the shit out of Vader and pulled a Star Destroyer out of orbit.
  • I call your Galen Marek. He was a child of two Jedi, so he had way more power than a normal Jedi. Even then, it took his full focus to pull that Star Destroyer down from low altitude. And the rest of his foes? We see Revan overpowering rancors on the Rakata world and smashing big battle droids even easier than Galen. Malak could wipe the floor of his observation deck with Vader. And they, while strong by their time's standards, weren't that exceptional, and had no Jedi heritage.
    • There is no evidence that force sensitivity is tied to bloodline, only exceptions to the norm like Galen and the Skywalkers, so his parents are irrelevant. Most force users seem to come from normal, non-force user parents.
    • The Force may not die at any time in the story universe, but think about the opening line to all the movies: "A LONG TIME AGO, in a galaxy far, far away..."

Nihlus is actually The Pyro

Eventually, after years of battle The Pyro figured out how to set things on fire with his mind, using The Force. Pyrokinesis requires a lot of force energy to use, so she takes to consuming entire planet's worth of life in order to try and sustain his ability. He doesn't use it in-game because she doesn't have enough force energy at that point.

• Nihlus?
• I think you mean Nihilus. Unless Knights of the Old Republic is in the same universe as Team Fortress 2 *and* Mass Effect.
• Alternatively, Nihilus is the Spy. Disguised as the Pyro disguised as Nihlus. When Saren killed him he was actually using the Dead Ringer.

Kreia is Arren Kae, the Jedi Master who was Revan's first and last teacher

An old theory, but should be here for posterity's sake. Kreia is also indirectly mentioned to be Revan's first and last teacher; she looks very similar to the Handmaiden, Arren Kae's daughter; Arren Kae was thought to have died at Malachor V with no body found (but surely No-One Could Have Survived That,) and the Jedi masters say they thought Kreia died at Malachor V, etc. An entire chapter of a Let's Play for this game is dedicated to pointing out a whole sequence of events practically done in the style of the offhand comments in the first game that turned out to be the hints for Revan's true nature; given Obsidian's usual style, it's pretty likely these are intentional.

• Counterpoint: Arren Kae is explicitly stated to have gone to the Mandalorian Wars and died (okay, "died") there. However, Revan and Malak are equally explicitly said to have gone to said war over the objections of their masters. Also, they are the most prominent Jedi to do so, which is unlikely to be the case if their teacher runs off with them.
  • Counter-counterpoint: "Gone to war over the objection of their masters" doesn’t explicitly mean their direct teachers. The Jedi order has a hierarchy, and the members Jedi Council are regarded in status of authority as masters over the other Jedi. Also, there may be some group lessons, like we saw in Episode II with Yoda teaching the younglings, that may account for numerous Jedi having a former “master” or “teacher” that trained them before their Padawan years (this is what Obi-Wan meant in the OT when he referred to Yoda as having taught him, despite us seeing Obi-Wan as Qui-Gon’s apprentice in Episode I).
  • Also, it's funny you should mention Arren Kae is dead. What was the first thing the Jedi masters said when seeing Kreia?
• Chris Avellone's word on this one is "Can't comment, but good catch. Sorry."

Darth Sion is the crazy captain of the Icarus I

from Sunshine.Just look at him. He's got no skin, he's bald, he's a complete nutcase, and he picks people up by the throat. Clearly he survived falling into the Sun with EPIC FORCAGE, escaped, and joined the Sith Triumvirate.

Kreia is an incarnation of Ravel Puzzlewell.

Old woman, poor eyesight who's a Blind Seer, sharp-tongued, Trickster Mentor, fond of the Breaking Speech, puzzles, riddles, and has a definitive 'bond' with the main character. Not to mention that both are created by Chris Avellone, who has claimed that incarnations of Ravel follow these general tendencies.

• Avellone specifically said that part of the design for Kreia was Ravel as a party member. This is pretty much confirmed.

Kreia is not Arren Kae

She is Arren Kae's mother, and thus the Handmaiden's grandmother. (INSERT REASONINGS HERE)

Darth Traya is actually one of the Ones specifically The Mother.

She lies alot and The Entity which one of the writers of The Old Republic claims to be Darth Traya is claimed by Darth Vowrawn to be as old as The Force itself and the only ones that match that description are the Ones and since we've seen The Father, The Daughter and The Son the only one left for Traya to be is The Mother who embodies The Void. Why she lies about being Revan's master is obvious: She wants to deceive the Exile who's ability to survive without The Force interests her. Of course she is apparently smart enough to teach Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus how to become unique Dark Side abominations that only the Sith Emperor(who seems to be a bigger manifestation of The Dark Side than Darth Sidious) surpasses.

• It also seems she ran afoul with the Jedi once and had some of her students corrupted by them(easy to imagine considering how they put age restrictions on initiates only after Darth Bane) and judging from Master Vrook's words Revan was one of them. It also seems as if she faked her death during the Mandalorian Wars as well(which leads one to suspect that her battle with the Exile was just a means to fake her death a second time).
• It also seems as if she is the one to have arranged for the Jedi to exile the Exile(an easy feat considering how she's able to hide from Jedi even when in the exact same room as them) for reasons unknown though it seems it was tied to her attempts at analysis of both Darth Revan and the Exile.

Darth Traya was never a Sith.

We only have the Jedi Masters' assumptions(and Darth Traya's claim that "The Betrayer" is a Sith Lord though she could have been refering to Atris who had been using Sith Holocrons) that she is. She herself stated to Atris that she did not believe herself to be Sith despite admitting being Darth Traya(she also hinted that she saw Atris as Sith as well). Darth Sion being her apprentice isn't evidence since he was a Sith before even meeting her. Darth Nihilus was in league with Darth Sion and was likely declared a Sith by Sion during the coup.

Bao-Dur was killed when the Ebon Hawk crashed on Malachor V.

We never really figure out what happened to Bao-Dur. The only thing we see of Bao-Dur in the endgame is a hologram commanded by triggers, which infers that it was programmed in case something happened to him. Earlier in the game he was completely knocked out by the crash on Telos, which Atton presumably managed to reasonably get under control unlike the Malachor crash, which spiraled out of control and resulted in the Ebon Hawk plummeting into the depths of the planet after a certain point.

• Except that Bao-Dur went missing just before the battle on Telos. Lt. Grenn notes his absence.

Kreia lied about your Force Bond with her.

Well, duh, nearly everything she says is a lie, but I don't talk about existence of such a bond. I imply she lied of its nature, as in deliberately causing unimaginable pain if either of you gets injured. Instead, she is the one to transmit her own pain through the Force Bond whenever it suits her. Think of it: in game terms it would mean the Exile would be down every time Kreia was knocked out and vice versa. And it clearly doesn't work this way if I remember it correctly. Secondly, we could with a certain safety say that the Exile forms Force Bonds with anyone they meet, but many of people they meet, they end up killing. So then, this empathic link is only established with Kreia. Actually, no one even heard of this before, as every Jedi Master you confront with this question ends up wondering if such a thing is even possible. Then what? My guess is that Kreia pulls this off as a part of her scheme in a successful attempt to make you allow her to follow you, regardless of your opinion on the matter. Hell, then she could even want Dart Sion to cut off her arm as a kind of warning of what happens when she is hurt. Like, whenever I am in pain, you will also suffer. She even uses it once again in Jedi Conclave on Dantooine to stop you from following her immediately, thus giving her a head start for Malachor V. And it's topped up when the tendency of getting hurt empathically suddenly disappears in the final Boss Fight. Otherwise, it would be a hilarious example of downright two-party masochism.

• But it's just a theory, a game the.... Wait, I won't get sued for copyright breach, right. Will I? Anyway, it also could be that they are ''that'' close bonded, for reasons of fate or whatever. And then they lost a connection when Kreia betrays the Exile. Really? Is that even considered a spoiler?
• It indeed not work that way with Kreia being knocked out knocking out the Exile, though Kreia does provide something of an explanation if you ask her (paraphrased from memory, now that you are aware of the strength of the bond, it is possible to 'shield' yourself somewhat, so that the hurts of battle won't be completely crippling to the other) — but, then again, it is Kreia herself who provides this explanation...

Obsidian's plan was to make all WMG's about Kreia with this game.

Prove me wrong.

Darth Sion has an Oedipus Complex with Kreia.

I know, I know, it sounds like bad Fan Fic, but hear me out. An Oedipus Complex is an antagonistic relationship with the father figure by the son, often to further themselves in the eyes of the mother (sometimes sexually). Now consider Kreia's relationship with Sion: she's both his former and future master, and a person whom Sion is seemingly bent on both punishing and impressing (usually via the same method, attacking her). He describes her to the Exile like he would a harridan mother, who constantly berates him for his failures and whose words "crawl in [his] head." If the Exile is male, Sion eventually seeks to kill him, as he sees Kreia's obsession with the Exile as a repudiation of him: if he kills the Exile, then Kreia will have no choice but to accept him again. Hell, even Sion's name is a shortened form of "scion", meaning "descendant" or "son" of a great lineage. Then think about how Kreia uses the phrase "indignities" in exactly two instances, when discussing Atton's... err... extracurricular activities, and when she mentions what the Sith (particularly Sion) did to her before banishing her. This heavily implies that she was at least sexually assaulted, if not raped, by Sion. It goes a long way in explaining just how messed up an individual Sion is, as while his physical scars may be the most obvious, his mental scars from this relationship are just as deep. It also explains why Sion's love for the female Exile ends up redeeming him: it is the first normal-ish desire he's felt in a loooooong time.

Darth Nihilus is another form of Vitiate from Star Wars: The Old Republic

Both Nihilus and Vitiate are world devourers and Vitiate is known to take different forms.

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