Headscratchers / Saw X

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All spoilers, including those from following movies, will be unmarked ahead. Read on or go back — make your choice.

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William Easton

• So like... with the experimental treatment having been revealed as a huge scam, wouldn't that mean William was RIGHT not to approve Kramer's request for coverage? Kinda seems like William didn't quite deserve all that punishment after all, doesn't it?
  • I guess you're forgetting all of his other clients who were denied coverage and died afterwards, including the man whose wife and son were part of the trial in Saw VI.
    • That unfortunately happens with every insurance company, though. The only reason William was targeted is because of his connection to Jigsaw and the bone he had to pick with Will refusing to fund his experimental treatment. So either Jigsaw put him in the test before he got scammed, or he essentially punished a man (and lots of other people) purely for not giving him what he wanted. Just doesn't seem to fit with the rest of his M.O.
    • Jigsaw's M.O. has always been hypocritical and disproportionately targeted people with whom he had personal gripes, so it actually fits quite well. You really shouldn't take everything he's claimed about his beliefs and system at face value.
    • Saw VI and William's test definitely takes place after this movie's events, as Hoffman doesn't have the cheek scar he picked up during that film during the mid-credits scene. It might well be that after he got back from Mexico, Jigsaw thought "You know what, maybe Easton did have a point after all when it comes to these experimental treatments, maybe I should have looked before I leapt" — until he found out about William denying Harold Abbott's claim for heart surgery (and effectively condemning him to death) on account of a minor dental issue, and thought "Nah, this guy totally deserves to have his innards melted with acid."
  • Yes, William was ultimately right to deny this treatment but for the wrong reasons. William didn't know it was a scam, he denied the treatment because it saved the company money to do so. His entire job was based around denying as many people healthcare as possible to make the insurance more profitable, and that is why he was targeted.
  • It has also been retconned so that the father was the one behind the treatment, which was implied to be a genuine experimental one, so it might still be up in the air. However, if anything this movie proves how John takes things personally, that's the reason he went so hard after the characters of the movie despite them not strictly in his philosophy of "not appreciating life".

So the ringleader gets off easy?

• Cecelia's less evil accomplices were subjected to brutal Body Horror traps, yet the mastermind—arguably the most villainous character in the franchise—receives the Adam Stanheight treatment in the end? If she escapes, she'll surely scam more people, only more discreetly this time.
  • With the doors of the room locked and the gas seemingly toxic on contact with human skin (as it causes burns), its highly unlikely she'll be able to escape.
  • Cecelia is either going to die of thirst over days, or chemical burns over hours. It may be on average less painful but her suffering will be drawn out more
  • Or she's left horribly scarred and weakened, making her an easy target for the police to make an arrest, or for anyone else who happens by, like the families of her other victims. No doubt John and Amanda left legally-actionable evidence behind that can be used against her. On the other hand, we are talking about Mexico, so the authorities may just let her go if she bribes them. If it's anyone other than the police, and they could get into that room and clear the gas safely, her final moments could be described as "deeply pornographic". Either way, it doesn't look good.

Mateo's test

• John's tests are all designed to be survivable, and while some survivors make it through with horrific injuries, they're usually something you can at least go on living with. In the hypothetical scenario where Mateo did succeed his trap, how was he going to continue living for long enough to seek medical attention with both a chunk of his skull and a piece of his brain removed, and with both wounds fully exposed to the open air? Its not quite the same as a missing limb.
  • The issue is, survivable is only in the context of managing to keep alive through the test. Take the freezing trap in Saw III, even if Jeff had rushed as fast as he could how was the naked victim going to survive the hours help would arrive when just one blast had already made her skin blue (advanced hypothermia)? John's philosophy only extends to the traps itself, he cares not if Mateo dies of infection twenty minutes after he leaves.
  • Also, this is a more personal trap, John is going to go harder on him by default.
  • Likely Fridge Brilliance: Dr Gordon was shown to be working with John as early as Saw II. Well, why not as early as Saw X then? Given the medical nature of many of the traps in the film, he had to have been closely involved in designing them. Hoffman doesn't have to know of Gordon's complicity (Hoffman only seems involved in John's machinations on the US side of the border), so as to preserve continuity with Saw VII, but maybe Amanda knew. Ironically, as an oncologist treating cancer patients, Dr Gordon very likely would have performed surgeries like the one Lynn did on John in Saw III and Mateo's self-performed one in this movie. If Mateo had given enough brain matter to prevent the trap's killswitch, Dr Gordon could have swooped in immediately to treat his wounds with whatever medical equipment was at the facility and then drop him off at a hospital for more substantial aftercare.

Her victims never told anyone about their surgery?

• Not one victim told a relative, spouse, or close friend about their supposed surgery and the scammers? It's not like Cecilia and co. constantly change their names to avoid suspicion. Did they all took their secret to the grave?
  • A very unfortunate case of Truth in Television. Even in the case that people had informed others, no legal action can be taken without evidence, especially if the "surgery" was done outside of the country and paid for out of pocket. And as for potentially warning other people off, the knowledge that without some miracle cure, you are going to die is enough to make people blind to red flags.

Was Gabriela doomed regardless of her choices?

• Even if she had started with her hand, wouldn't she eventually succumb to cancer from the radiation machine? It seems that the moment it was activated, her fate was sealed.
  • Multiple Saw traps are like that, the freezing trap from III, Gordon's and the barbed wire from I, many, many Saw traps are not survivable unless the victim gets medical attention IMMEDIATELY after they escape.
    • Which was even mentioned by John in this film — he planned on having Amanda transport anyone who survived their game to the hospital immediately after they finished.
  • The radiation machine looked more like a heavily-modified version (part of it appears to be re-purposed from equipment the scammers had left behind) that uses a high-powered electric heater instead of the radioactive element normally used. Machines that use (incredibly dangerous and lethal) radioactive elements in radiation therapy have a shutter and heavy shielding to control the amount of radiation released. This one didn't appear to have that. Plus the burner itself looks like an electric element with a fan behind it. Basically, it's a giant electric heat gun shaped to look like a radiation therapy machine. Technically, from John's explanation, it was producing a form of radiation, but the type that wasn't going to burn her on the inside. But, she would've needed immediate medical attention regardless.

Why was Gabriela smashing her foot first considered a good idea?

• In Gabriela's trap, she has to crush one of her hands and one of her feet while suspended from her wrist. Cecilia tells her to smash her foot first, so that she swings out of the way of the giant heat gun burning her to death. That makes sense, but wouldn't smashing her hand first make more sense? She'd fall to the ground, out of the path of the machine as well, but now is on the floor and able to simply walk out of the machine's path when it moves, and also no longer has to be suspended.
  • Or this was a subtle form of sabotage by Cecilia (which can possibly be considered Fridge Brilliance). Cecilia by now knew that Parker had arrived and had gained John's confidence and was already thinking about cutting the last loose end. Cecilia probably wanted Gabriela to lose and coached her to go about her game in the inferior order. Gabriela would have had increased stability to apply torque when smashing her wrist when she was partially anchored by her ankle chain; and as stated she could have then walked up to her ankle and broken it easier and with better leverage.
  • There was a second reason Cecilia could just as well have given: smashing the hand first would've meant a much longer and less controllable fall. Gabriela could have died from that alone or been hurt too badly to finish escaping.

Why does no one disguise themselves?

• Throughout the entire movie, John, Amanda, and Hoffman all make no attempt to hide their identities at all. Is this not a really dumb idea? After all, John has no intention of killing anyone who manages to survive their traps, meaning he would just let himself get exposed as Jigsaw in that scenario. On this note, why is Diego not reporting him to the police? John would definitely let him go, as he passed his test.
  • For starters, Diego is part of a criminal conspiracy to con people out of their money. If he goes to the police to report John and the others, one of their questions is naturally going to be "why?", which could lead to him going to prison. For another, the Mexican authorities aren't known for their trustworthiness compared to authorities in the U.S. or elsewhere. He could end up being ignored or worse. Yet another thing is that one of John's apprentices, Mark Hoffman, is quite happy to kill anyone who threatens exposure. On top of all that, he just went through tearing up his arms to escape a couple of pipe bombs. He's not exactly in a position to retaliate.
  • In regard to the others, it could either be a case of Stockholm Syndrome or simple blackmail. All the other participants are involved in an international conspiracy to defraud people to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars each and leaving their victims dead. None of the others can go to the police without facing serious charges of their own. Even if they cut a deal, they're still looking at time in prison, and having their money and assets seized as proceeds of a criminal enterprise.
  • It's worth pointing out that there's rather more damage that the Saw X trap victims could accomplish than simply that achieved by merely going to the police. Just as damaging is simply knowing their identities (they know John's real name, they also heard "Amanda" and they could hire a private investigator or something to find out more about her, Hoffman should be safe because he's only really featured in the last moments of the movie and at least John only called him "Detective") and doing other acts of retribution with that information. Note how even though this is now the first film set after the original, Jigsaw's crimes are already internationally notorious (Cecilia was probably not the only one in the scam conspiracy who knew of his reputation). Leak the story to the journalists of the nameless city in which most of the series is set, and suddenly the police know who he is a lot earlier than Saw II. And the cops would have to act on that info, whether they get the cancer treatment scam team to cooperate or if they have to find other ways to make the accusations stick. Amanda's identity as an accomplice would also be well known to the officers who act against John in Saw II, rather than it being a twist for them as much as it (originally) was for the audience. And what about a lynch mob going after the now-outed killers? John and his accomplices being willing to let living witnesses, who have seen their faces, go is indeed peculiar.

How are they going to explain Gabriela's condition after taking her to the hospital?

• It's probably nit-picky, but as a side-note to the question above mine, after they take Gabriela to the hospital, how are they going to explain her condition? I'm curious to see how they'll talk their way out of this one.
  Amanda: Please, this woman is almost dying, save her.
  Hospital staff: Oh my God, what the Hell happened?
  Amanda: She was trapped receiving intense radiation and needed to break her hand and foot to survive.
  Hospital staff: We will treat her, but do you know how this happened?
  Amanda: (gulp)
  • She doesn't have to explain a thing. She could just leave a note explaining her injuries, though that's not necessary as her injuries are pretty self-evident. All Amanda has to do is just drop her off at the entrance to the hospital emergency room, get the staff's attention, and get out of there.
    • She wasn't burned by radiation, she was burned by an electric heat gun that was styled to look like a radiation machine.
  • Yeah, there are so many stories in fiction where a wounded person is dropped off (often times literally booted out of the vehicle, by the hospital's front entrance) by someone who has no interest in sticking around to explain the circumstances. The driver wants to bring the victim to medical assistance, but to do anything more than that is an unwanted complication. Why should this situation be any different?

Did anyone had a feeling that some traps were extremely difficult?

• I know that every Saw movie after the first one has some exaggerations for the sake of gore, but this one movie took away my immersion in some traps because they were so impossible to the point of nonsense. The first trap of the bombs at the arms was alright, probably no one is able to do that under three minutes, but okay, fine, now the second and third one of the leg and brain, NOPE. Anyone would pass out in valentina's place after reaching the bone probably, and there's even the second, extremely painful step of removing the bone marrow, all of that under three minutes, and when the leg comes off little blood comes out, and she's still able to do everything she was supposed to with relative "ease" (at the "kill your suspension of disbelief with horror movies" level), only dying because of the trap's slowness. And the dude with zero training has to somehow remove his skull and a part of his brain without seeing what he's doing, under THREE minutes, I was like BRUH, TF is John smoking? Mateo's actor should be crying a lot more, going literally crazy, vomiting, whatever. In the first movie after Dr. Gordon cuts off his foot he becomes all weak like he's about to die, his face goes white and he loses the ability to speak normally, almost passing out, none of that happened in this movie, all the characters go through all of that just with a few screams. For these two traps specifically, I believe this movie took a step further than the others, maybe if the characters weren't able to go that far in the traps, but just barely doing only half of the tasks I wouldn't be writing this here.
  • Don't forget that this is personal for John, these people targeted him directly. So he's gonna be a bit more brutal with them
  • It's Artistic License – Medicine. A movie where someone starts their trap, passes out, and then is killed while unconscious wouldn't be entertaining, even though it is more realistic.
    • Yeah but, forgive my previous wording, but I'm not merely comparing the movie with real life, I'm comparing this movie with the others, I felt it was more absurd than the franchise's normal.
  • It's possible that the traps in the series as a whole, not just this film, aren't intended to be as hard as they would be in real life; victims often fare better in them than they have any realistic right to. Plus, it would undermine John's philosophy (which later films seem intent on validating) if the average person would die in his traps, which are only meant to kill people who didn't value their lives.

Why did John care about Carlos?

• In the first movie he put Dr. Gordon's daughter, an innocent kid, in a traumatizing situation no problem, but in this movie he suddenly cared about Carlos?
  • Because he actually spent time with Carlos and bonded with him. In all the other cases where kids were involved, he kept himself at arm's length. Also, he never planned on involving Carlos in his "games" at all.
  • He didn't just put her (or Daniel in the 2nd movie, for that matter) in traumatizing situations; he was going to kill them. (Dr. Gordon passing his test was unlikely, statistically speaking, Detective Tapp's intervention and Allison getting the upper hand on Zep were unexpected, and while Daniel had the slight safety-net of Amanda letting him out, he wasn't vaccinated against the nerve gas and was trapped in a building with people whom his father had wrongfully imprisoned and were incentivized to kill him to save themselves.) However, those films were written before the writers decided to make John a hero. In-universe A. John is a hypocrite; things are only bad if someone else does them and B. he spent some time with Carlos, however brief.
  • Actually, John took immense steps to make sure Daniel came to no harm in the Nerve Gas house. Not only was Amanda his shadow for basically the course of the entire film, when Eric arrives and finds Jonas' corpse, the safe is open and a used needle is on the floor. The whole gambit of the numbers on the backs of people's heads, while technically a chance, is still virtually impossible to have collected and used effectively before the others expired. This would mean that the antidote in the safe was a guaranteed dose for Amanda to give Daniel after Xavier was killed and the "game" was over. It's locked up where it is and the solution is so difficult to parse because it's supposed to only be for Daniel's use to save him from the gas effects. After Daniel's role in the house is completed, he's safely stashed in the safe with an oxygen supply for the rest of the cops in John's lair to find and rescue. Had Amanda and the safe not been there, there would be an argument that John didn't care whether Daniel lived or died, but based on both those things, John was very attuned to Daniel's safety. While he dies leave the clue for the others to find out Daniel's identity, he knows Amanda will help him, and the main reason it's done it to ratchet up Eric's tension over Daniel's situation, and see if Matthews can follow his instructions, knowing the people in the house hate him, or crack.
  • Basically John is indeed a) insane and b) a hypocrite. However his twisted morality kinda makes sense in this context. He doesn't have a universal standard of Wouldn't Hurt a Child. Rather, he feels that children are fair game if they're related to his test subjects. He didn't create many safeguards to help protect Diana Gordon or Corbett Denlon (note that the fact that she was rescued by Hoffman was probably him fixing the rules of the game to benefit himself, rather than what John had intended which was for her father Jeff to go through another game after the events of the third movie and rescue her). The fact that he had Amanda there to protect Daniel Matthews probably indicates that he saw something worthy in Daniel, or perhaps more likely just to reward his father Eric in the event that he had played by his rules perfectly and passed the test. Carlos, on the other hand, is not related to a test subject of John's and had the additional benefit of getting to bond with him on a personal level.

The blood boarding trap

• Couldn't someone simply turn their head to the side to breathe freely? Their heads don't seem to be held in place.
  • Actually they were, something was holding their neck.
  • It's also ultimately pointless, since the trap is fake and only designed to make it look like they are being put through the test, knowing that shortly the real trap will be activated. The only possible victims for it are John, Amanda (both of them aware of the trick and that will put on the show) and Carlos, a child.
  • No, that's negated when you consider that the trap could very well have been intended for Cecelia and Parker, if they had played by the rules. They didn't, so they got the Gas Chamber Trap instead. And if you're thinking "wait, Parker didn't get kidnapped and automatically put into a trap, so if he didn't try to turn the tables on the Jigsaw team, why would they put him into one?". Well, they already knew he was part of the scam, so probably intended to reveal they knew that when it was time for Cecelia to be placed in the Blood Boarding Trap with something as simple as "Don't think you're getting out that easy, Parker".

What was John thinking to give Carlos all the money?

• Seriously, what's up with that? If there's one category of people who John should feel immense empathy for (almost certainly to the point that he'd even consider them ineligible as targets for his traps), it's his fellow terminal scammed cancer patients who also got ripped off by the con. John and Amanda count $8 million, apparently all in the loot they found in the house so not counting however much the scammers have already spent. Which was stolen from 34 people including John (and they probably knew not to include Parker in that count). So don't those 33 other unfortunate marks deserve their money back? Sure, some have probably already died from their untreated conditions (this scam has been running for over eight years and terminal cancers do not give you much time). But that money would be some form of consolation to their next of kin, who may also have been bankrupted (or near enough) trying to help pay for this "miracle cure". Instead, he gives Carlos the entire bag of cash. Now Playing Podcast snarked that the kid probably went on to either get targeted for the money by a cartel, or actually use the money to create his own cartel! And yes, he's a sweet young boy who comes from a poor background and endures an awful torture by the scam artists. But still, why not give him just a portion of the money (like I dunno, John's own share? The only part he had a right to spend at all?!) and return the rest to the other victims and/or their surviving relatives and other benefactors? Don't even worry about the logistics of returning the money, John would find a way. After all, it's not like he really cares about his secret identity of Jigsaw being exposed per the events of this movie.
  • The other cancer patients are all dead. Amanda specifically says that everyone they scammed is ‘in the ground’. Also, really? Accusing the kid of starting his own cartel based on what? That he’s Mexican? We see him take a bloodboarding for a stranger he met once, clearly this kid’s gonna be the type to do some heinous shit with that cash. Also, maybe that kid, I dunno, takes the money to his dad who would be smart enough not to announce to the world that they got a sudden windfall? They could even use it to move to a safer area away from the cartel worries.
  • You're kinda cherry picking from my question there as to how to answer it. Ok, the other patients are dead (although Amanda might want to double check that, definitely wouldn't be surprising if there are for example some marks who have paid half the fee but not actually undergone the "treatment" yet for example. Remember the scene where Cecelia crosses off John from the wall of targets and we see other past, future and possible present targets). But what about the point about their loved ones, friends and other benefactors (for those who had any)? Why aren't you giving them any consideration, and why didn't John? Also remember it was the hosts of a podcast who said that about cartels, not me. And they said it mostly in a joking tone but it does kind of give implications of an Esoteric Happy Ending. These concerns may have been mollified if John had actually given it directly to Carlos' parents (you just really shouldn't expect a kid to be able to look after such a large sum even over the short period between when you drop him off and him getting into the family house, maybe he rushes over to the grocery store and buys out all the candy or something naive and foolish like that, maybe he just trips and spills the cash in a crowded area). Or, more substantially, if John had done the truly decent thing and returned the money (minus his own share which can go to Carlos and family, which is just by itself a probably life-changing sum for a poor Mexican family) to the next of kin of those it was robbed from.
    • It might have been the host of a podcast, but you are the one that chose to report it as a legitimate criticism, so you deserve to share the flack for it. And it's a pretty racist comment. That said, the point stands: John is a serial killer more interested in retribution and "teaching lessons" than justice. He didn't go after the cartel because they were thieves that deserved to be given to justice, but as retaliation because they cheated people of a chance to extend their lives. After all, from what we saw (pun not intended) he wouldn't have issues to sic the authorities after them, consider how easily Hoffman finds information about them, he doesn't do it not because they were beyond the law, but because John didn't care about it.
    • It was not intended as a racist comment (by myself anyway), but as a springboard for discussion as to how hey, this is a pretty shortsighted decision. See my other comments about how any number of other calamities could have resulted in some cases almost immediately after the decision, as a direct result of it... or perhaps even the cartel scenarios could have come to pass. Remember, this is a man who said he assumes nothing, only anticipates possibilities, but he didn't apply that heightened foresight here. If anyone took offence, I apologise for it, but my intention should be very clear now. As to when you say "He didn't go after the cartel because they were thieves that deserved to be given to justice, but as retaliation because they cheated people of a chance to extend their lives." well in essence those are the same thing from Jigsaw's perspective. In the same movie referred to earlier, he tells Hoffman as he's indoctrinating him into becoming an apprentice that the conventional legal/justice system is corrupt and that his way of doing things is much better to rehabilitate "offenders". Which is not to indicate agreement with his esoteric (and sometimes contradictory, and frankly, insane) way of thinking, but just to make a point for the argument. And, one of those flashback instances (of him speaking to Hoffman) is set chronologically before Saw, and said film is the closest prequel to Saw X, so what he says should have particular bearing here. The other is set shortly before Saw II, and said film is set just after Saw X, allowing one to draw a similar conclusion.
  • Point on John giving it to the families but, well, John is NOT a good person. He’s a hypocritical serial killer who, as Cecilia points out, has no room to lecture her on morality. He gives the money to Carlos to be nice to a kid who earned his respect. It’s likely a spur of the moment decision since I imagine he would’ve just kept the money for himself if Carlos hadn’t gotten involved due to Cecilia being a petty sadist. For all his bluster about how the scam artists are stealing people’s hopes, I imagine this is almost entirely about revenge for him. He took Cecilia’s money to punish her, not because he wanted to give it back to the families or give them closure. Even his treatment of Carlos is hypocritical since chronologically before and after this film he puts children in danger to test their parents with their deaths as collateral for failure. Asking why John didn’t give the money back to the families is like asking why he doesn’t give his money to charity instead of funding deathtraps. John is a shitty person with an ideology that has so many holes you could it’s basically hollow.
  • It's not all the money that the scammers had gotten over the years. It was just the money that they scammed from John. It's his money and he can do what he wants with it. He bonded with Carlos, he respected his selflessness, he never intended for him to be involved, and it seemed only fair to compensate him for the trouble.
  • I still think John just didn't put any thought into his decision about the money (and likely the writers didn't, either). Remember, the entire reason he dreamed up the Eye Vacuum Trap was because he observed a janitor considering theft against a vulnerable hospital patient, and decided against implementing it when he saw the janitor think better of it. So his empathy for fellow cancer patients/marks should have overridden any spur of the moment generosity towards Carlos. Regarding his treatment of Carlos vs other children, I just gave an answer to the earlier headscratcher which basically said the reason Carlos got protective/special treatment because he a) isn't related to an adult test subject and b) bonded with John. John might be an insane hypocrite, but the actions aren't exactly contradictory according to that standard. Next, in terms of the suggestion that the scammers only had John's money on hand at the time, that's a questionable assertion which will need a citation to back it up. Can you give a timestamp for hard evidence which supports it? I can't remember any suggestion of such an idea, and the transcript doesn't support it either. If there are other recent marks, it stands to reason that the scammers would have their money in hand both in the form of cash and also somehow laundered into their bank accounts/perhaps other investments, and Amanda was able to retrieve it from both of those sources. Likewise, she would be able to do that for the earlier marks, up to a point (can't get money back which has been irretrievably spent, but if it's just sitting there gaining interest? Maybe even appreciating incredibly if its been invested into stocks or other financial assets? Yeah, massive gains there, which the victims' next of kin would truly deserve).
    • During a phone conversation between the scammer and another victim, she mentioned meeting in Bolivia. Meaning that she moved around South America over a period of years. Each victim also had amounts written on a post-it underneath their names. Each amount ranged from around $250-thousand to over 455. She had a bag of cash with smaller wads meant for her accomplices. Clearly, that wouldn't be anywhere near the total amount she had scammed to date. During the final trap scene, we see print-outs showing deposits of thirty-thousand dollars. Meaning that the rest of the cash was going to be deposited somewhere and wired into her account. Unless John somehow gained access to her accounts, the only cash he was able to recover was his own. On top of that, you're dealing with a sociopath. They're not known for money management; any person with $8-million would've been able to retire and live comfortably for the rest of their lives. Yet, she was still scamming people. Chances are, she pissed away most of the money as soon as she got it and needed more to maintain her lifestyle.

Valentina's survivability

• Just how likely was Valentina to survive her trap anyway? Given how high up she amputated her leg, wouldn't she have ended up cutting clean through her femoral artery as well?
  • She was provided with a tourniquet that was intended to stop the bleeding long enough to get her to the hospital. This is definitely Artistic License – Medicine, however, as a simple belt like that wouldn't do much to stop such a heavy bleed, especially with how poorly she applied it.
  • There's a theory that Dr. Gordon was on hand to provide at least short term care for crazy injuries such as these, while Amanda would meanwhile be driving whatever vehicle they had to rush to the nearest hospital. Of course, assuming the victim actually passed their test.

Would the Eye Vacuum Trap really have been fatal?

• On the surface, it seems like the hypothetical trap would have had the only survivable "lose" condition—eyes sucked out by vacuums is an absolutely horrific and physically traumatic fate, but it doesn't seem like a certain kill the way other Jigsaw game losses are. Could a victim theoretically live after losing that game?
  • Well, who's to know that the vacuums wouldn't just keep sucking out optic nerve, and then the brain, after having sucked the eyeballs out? Actually, that has to be a given. If John contrasts the custodian's survivable fate as having to break five fingers, and thus then he can "live to survive another day", against the alternative, definitely gray matter will be getting evacuated along with the eyes should he fail. According to Quora, this would also liquefy the brain, and obviously cause unsurvivable bleeding on top of that.
  • Even if the vaccums (somehow) turned off very soon after the eyes were sucked out, the custodian is still left strapped to a chair, completely unable to see and chances are, nobody is coming to get him out of the chair. If the shock of losing his eyes doesn't kill him, then he'd end up dying via blood loss or starvation/dehydration.

Sloppy scamming

• At the very least, since the scammers had an operating room and John under anesthetic anyway, couldn't they have made a few surface cuts and stitches so he'd be able to feel them afterwards and see them in the mirror in the event that his cap accidentally came off?
  • They could have...but they might have been fatally unconcerned with being discovered as a scam by their marks because they figured they'd already be well out of reach physically and resource-wise when their financially depleted victims found out, or perhaps banked on their patients removing themselves from the picture out of despair. They also could have smoothed a few incidents over by claiming the treatment just failed that time as long as they weren't discovered to have never performed any procedures. The scammers have clearly gotten away with it enough times to feel safe, and they just severely underestimated who they were dealing with this time, not knowing the tenacity, connections, and brutal sense of justice possessed by John Kramer.

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