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** Edmund Bertram is largely portrayed fairly positive...but it cannot be ignored that the kindness he shows Fanny, for which she falls in love with him, is mostly just basic human decency, made to appear exceptional by the fact that it's still better treatment than Fanny receives from anyone else at Mansfield. And even then, his treatment of her is InnocentlyInsensitive ''at best''. Edmund's It'sAllAboutMe tendencies are better-hidden than his siblings' but this is still the man who responds to what he believes is Fanny's heartbreak over a man who was courting her seducing her cousin by begging her to think of ''his'' heartbreak over Mary's support of her brother.

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** Edmund Bertram is largely portrayed fairly positive...positively...but it cannot be ignored that the kindness he shows Fanny, for which she falls in love with him, is mostly just basic human decency, made to appear exceptional by the fact that it's still better treatment than Fanny receives from anyone else at Mansfield. And even then, his treatment of her is InnocentlyInsensitive ''at best''. Edmund's It'sAllAboutMe tendencies are better-hidden than his siblings' but this is still the man who responds to what he believes is Fanny's heartbreak over a man who was courting her seducing her cousin by begging her to think of ''his'' heartbreak over Mary's support of her brother.
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** Edmund Bertram is largely portrayed fairly positive...but it cannot be ignored that the kindness he shows Fanny, for which she falls in love with him, is mostly just basic human decency, made to appear exceptional by the fact that it's still better treatment than Fanny receives from anyone else at Mansfield. And even then, his treatment of her is InnocentlyInsensitive ''at best''. Edmund's It'sAllAboutMe tendencies are better-hidden than his siblings' but this is still the man who responds to what he believes is Fanny's heartbreak over a man who was courting her seducing her cousin by begging her to think of ''his'' heartbreak over Mary's support of her brother.

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Take That is not YMMV


* [[FanPreferredCouple Fan Preferred Couples]]: Quite a few Janeites wish the novel had ended with [[spoiler:Fanny/Henry Crawford]] and [[spoiler:Edmund/Mary Crawford]] instead of [[spoiler:Fanny/Edmund]], despite that Austen always strives to show that true love arises from similarity of character and that [[RealityEnsues bad boys will not change for a good girl]].

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* [[FanPreferredCouple Fan Preferred Couples]]: Quite a few Janeites wish the novel had ended with [[spoiler:Fanny/Henry Crawford]] Fanny/Henry Crawford and [[spoiler:Edmund/Mary Crawford]] Edmund/Mary Crawford instead of [[spoiler:Fanny/Edmund]], Fanny/Edmund, despite that Austen always strives to show that true love arises from similarity of character and that [[RealityEnsues bad boys will not change for a good girl]].



* LesYay: Fanny/Mary Crawford -- much more subtle than Literature/{{Emma}}/Harriet but definitely there.
-->'''Edmund:''' Well, Fanny, and how do you like Miss Crawford ''now''?
-->'''Fanny:''' Very well -- very much. I like to hear her talk. She entertains me; and she is so extremely pretty, that [[EvenTheGirlsWantHer I have great pleasure in looking at her]].
** Oh so much between Frances O'Connor and Embeth Davidtz in the 1999 movie, at least for as long as Fanny isn't a serious contender for anyone's hand in marriage.

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* LesYay: LesYay:
**
Fanny/Mary Crawford -- much more subtle than Literature/{{Emma}}/Harriet but definitely there.
-->'''Edmund:'''
there.
--->'''Edmund:'''
Well, Fanny, and how do you like Miss Crawford ''now''?
-->'''Fanny:'''
''now''?\\
>'''Fanny:'''
Very well -- very much. I like to hear her talk. She entertains me; and she is so extremely pretty, that [[EvenTheGirlsWantHer I have great pleasure in looking at her]].
** Oh so much There are very suggestive scenes between Frances O'Connor Fanny (Frances O'Connor) and Embeth Davidtz Mary (Embeth Davidtz) in the 1999 movie, at least for as long as Fanny isn't a serious contender for anyone's hand in marriage.



* StoicWoobie: Fanny.
* TakeThat: Mary Crawford's plan to fix the mess at the end is to make Henry Crawford marry Maria after her divorce and to help the couple build some kind of life together -- the standard, expected, and accepted solution of the day -- despite the fact that Henry knowingly and willingly ruined her [[DoubleStandard (they all know their society punishes the woman more than the man in these cases)]] and that all sorts of careful manipulation will be necessary to convince him to go through with it. Edmund Bertram is disgusted by the suggestion that his sister marrying such a rake -- "the chance of a marriage which, thinking as I now thought of her brother, should rather be prevented than sought" -- could be seen as a happy ending.

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%% * StoicWoobie: Fanny.
* TakeThat: Mary Crawford's plan to fix the mess at the end is to make Henry Crawford marry Maria after her divorce and to help the couple build some kind of life together -- the standard, expected, and accepted solution of the day -- despite the fact that Henry knowingly and willingly ruined her [[DoubleStandard (they all know their society punishes the woman more than the man in these cases)]] and that all sorts of careful manipulation will be necessary to convince him to go through with it. Edmund Bertram is disgusted by the suggestion that his sister marrying such a rake -- "the chance of a marriage which, thinking as I now thought of her brother, should rather be prevented than sought" -- could be seen as a happy ending.
Fanny.



** The first of the early warning signs that Mary Crawford is a BitchInSheepsClothing seem less blatant when looked at through modern eyes: [[ThickerThanWater She makes an]] [[MyCountryRightOrWrong open criticism of her uncle]] (a philanderer who moved his mistress into the home after his wife's death). Such criticism of her guardian was considered a highly disrespectful action in that time.
** Also, Edmund is opposed to the play on many grounds - but one of them is the 'indecency' of his sisters being on stage in front of an audience, even a small family audience, something we would not bat an eye at today. Granted, the participants then pick a romantic play and use the rehearsals as an excuse to flirt all over the place, so his objection still ends up justified by modern standards, but his incredibly deep objections when Tom begins the scheme are still puzzling to modern readers.
** Finally, this is the one where the happy ending is the heroine [[KissingCousins marrying her cousin]]. This isn't the only first-cousin couple depicted in Austen's work, but it is the only one where the main character is involved. Though there wasn't a taboo against such relationships at the time (it was more important that the two branches of the family were of the same social class), it's still hard for many modern readers not to feel weird about it.

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** The first of the early warning signs that Mary Crawford is a BitchInSheepsClothing seem less blatant when looked at through modern eyes: [[ThickerThanWater She makes an]] [[MyCountryRightOrWrong an open criticism of her uncle]] uncle (a philanderer who moved his mistress into the home after his wife's death). Such criticism of her guardian was considered a highly disrespectful action in that time.
** Also, Edmund is opposed to the play on many grounds - but one of them is the 'indecency' of his sisters being on stage in front of an audience, even a small family audience, something we would not bat an eye at today. Granted, the participants then pick a romantic play and use the rehearsals as an excuse to flirt all over the place, so his objection still ends up justified by modern standards, but his incredibly deep objections when Tom begins the scheme are still puzzling to modern readers.
** Finally, this is the one where the The happy ending is the heroine [[KissingCousins marrying her cousin]]. This isn't the only first-cousin couple depicted in Austen's work, but it is the only one where the main character is involved. Though there wasn't a taboo against such relationships at the time (it was more important that the two branches of the family were of the same social class), it's still hard for many modern readers not to feel weird about it.
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* DracoInLeatherPants: Serious scholarly version: Many critics are of the opinion that Mary Crawford is similar to [[Literature.PrideAndPrejudice Elizabeth Bennet]]. While both Lizzie and Mary are extroverted, fearless, and independent young women, Lizzie still has moral standards, comprehension and empathy that Mary notably lacks. Lizzie was an affectionate and [[DeadpanSnarker snarky]] SpiritedYoungLady, whereas Mary is a selfish SpiritedYoungLady with no regard for the happiness of the people around her, [[EvenEvilHasLovedOnes except for her brother]].

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* DracoInLeatherPants: Serious scholarly version: Many critics are of the opinion that Mary Crawford is similar to [[Literature.PrideAndPrejudice Elizabeth Bennet]]. While both Lizzie and Mary are extroverted, fearless, and independent young women, Lizzie still has moral standards, comprehension and empathy that Mary notably lacks. Lizzie was an affectionate and [[DeadpanSnarker snarky]] SpiritedYoungLady, whereas Mary is a selfish SpiritedYoungLady Spirited Young Lady with no regard for the happiness of the people around her, [[EvenEvilHasLovedOnes except for her brother]].
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** Finally, this is the one where the happy ending is the heroine [[KissingCousins marrying her cousin]]. This isn't the only first-cousin couple depicted in Austen's work, but it is the only one where the main character is involved. Though there wasn't a taboo against such relationships at the time (it was more important that the two branches of the family were of the same social class), it's still hard for many modern readers not to feel weird about it.
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* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Jane is scathing of her own creation, the woefully inadequate Lady Bertram. However, modern readers might wonder at some underlying heart, neurological or autoimmune dysfunction undiagnosable at Austen's time of writing, particularly if she was based on a living template. Add a terrible education, the low social expectations of "proper ladies with money", no worthwhile support systems ''and'' Mrs Norris sticking her oar in for her own selfish reasons... How much of that flighty, inconsistent demeanour ''is'' actually personal, wilful laziness rather than symptomatic of ignored physiological, psychosocial and cognitive issues combining into something horrible for all concerned? Is Lady Bertram just a violent disposition away from MadwomanInTheAttic, rather than her primarily self-imposed isolation from other family members due to an inability to cope?

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* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Jane is both scathing and understanding of her own creation, the woefully inadequate Lady Bertram. However, modern readers might wonder at some underlying heart, neurological or autoimmune dysfunction that would have been undiagnosable at Austen's time of writing, particularly if she was based on a or several living template. templates. Add a the highlighted terrible education, the low social expectations of "proper ladies with money", no worthwhile support systems ''and'' Mrs Norris sticking her oar in for her own selfish reasons... How much of that flighty, inconsistent demeanour ''is'' actually personal, wilful wilfully chosen laziness as Jane suggests some of it is, rather than symptomatic of ignored physiological, psychosocial and cognitive issues combining into something horrible for all concerned? Is Lady Bertram just a violent disposition or an unlucky fortune away from MadwomanInTheAttic, rather than her primarily self-imposed isolation from other family members due to an inbuilt inability to cope?cope she would always have little chance to control, even were she to have a better education or regard for others?
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* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Jane is scathing of her own creation, the woefully inadequate Lady Bertram. However, modern readers might wonder at some underlying heart or autoimmune dysfunction undiagnosable at Austen's time of writing, particularly if she was based on a living template. Add a terrible education, the low social expectations of "proper ladies with money", no worthwhile support systems ''and'' Mrs Norris sticking her oar in for her own selfish reasons... How much of that flighty, inconsistent demeanour ''is'' actually personal, wilful laziness rather than symptomatic of ignored physiological, psychosocial and cognitive issues combining into something horrible for all concerned? Is Lady Bertram just a violent disposition away from MadwomanInTheAttic, rather than her primarily self-imposed isolation from other family members due to an inability to cope?

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* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Jane is scathing of her own creation, the woefully inadequate Lady Bertram. However, modern readers might wonder at some underlying heart heart, neurological or autoimmune dysfunction undiagnosable at Austen's time of writing, particularly if she was based on a living template. Add a terrible education, the low social expectations of "proper ladies with money", no worthwhile support systems ''and'' Mrs Norris sticking her oar in for her own selfish reasons... How much of that flighty, inconsistent demeanour ''is'' actually personal, wilful laziness rather than symptomatic of ignored physiological, psychosocial and cognitive issues combining into something horrible for all concerned? Is Lady Bertram just a violent disposition away from MadwomanInTheAttic, rather than her primarily self-imposed isolation from other family members due to an inability to cope?
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* DracoInLeatherPants: Serious scholarly version: Many critics are of the opinion that Mary Crawford is similar to [[PrideAndPrejudice Elizabeth Bennet]]. While both Lizzie and Mary are extroverted, fearless, and independent young women, Lizzie still has moral standards, comprehension and empathy that Mary notably lacks. Lizzie was an affectionate and [[DeadpanSnarker snarky]] SpiritedYoungLady, whereas Mary is a selfish SpiritedYoungLady with no regard for the happiness of the people around her, [[EvenEvilHasLovedOnes except for her brother]].

to:

* DracoInLeatherPants: Serious scholarly version: Many critics are of the opinion that Mary Crawford is similar to [[PrideAndPrejudice [[Literature.PrideAndPrejudice Elizabeth Bennet]]. While both Lizzie and Mary are extroverted, fearless, and independent young women, Lizzie still has moral standards, comprehension and empathy that Mary notably lacks. Lizzie was an affectionate and [[DeadpanSnarker snarky]] SpiritedYoungLady, whereas Mary is a selfish SpiritedYoungLady with no regard for the happiness of the people around her, [[EvenEvilHasLovedOnes except for her brother]].
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* RetroactiveRecognition: The 2007 adaptation features a pre-[[Franchise/MarvelCinematicUniverse MCU]] Creator/HayleyAtwell as Mary Crawford.
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* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Jane is scathing of her own creation, the woefully inadequate Lady Bertram. However, modern readers might wonder at some underlying heart or autoimmune dysfunction undiagnosable at Austin's time of writing, particularly if she was based on a living template. Add a terrible education, the low social expectations of "proper ladies with money", no worthwhile support systems ''and'' Mrs Norris sticking her oar in for her own selfish reasons... How much of that flighty, inconsistent demeanour ''is'' actually personal, wilful laziness rather than symptomatic of ignored physiological, psychosocial and cognitive issues combining into something horrible for all concerned? Is Lady Bertram just a violent disposition away from MadwomanInTheAttic, rather than her primarily self-imposed isolation from other family members due to an inability to cope?

to:

* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Jane is scathing of her own creation, the woefully inadequate Lady Bertram. However, modern readers might wonder at some underlying heart or autoimmune dysfunction undiagnosable at Austin's Austen's time of writing, particularly if she was based on a living template. Add a terrible education, the low social expectations of "proper ladies with money", no worthwhile support systems ''and'' Mrs Norris sticking her oar in for her own selfish reasons... How much of that flighty, inconsistent demeanour ''is'' actually personal, wilful laziness rather than symptomatic of ignored physiological, psychosocial and cognitive issues combining into something horrible for all concerned? Is Lady Bertram just a violent disposition away from MadwomanInTheAttic, rather than her primarily self-imposed isolation from other family members due to an inability to cope?
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* FreudWasRight: It pains Fanny to see Mary Crawford riding the horse Edmund once established as solely for Fanny's use...
** The necklace scene. Fanny has two possible chains for her cross--one from Henry and one from Edmund. [[spoiler:Henry's]] doesn't fit in the designated hole. [[spoiler:Edmund's]] fits just fine.
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** The first of the early warning signs that Mary Crawford is a BitchInSheepsClothing seem less blatant when looked at through modern eyes: [[ThickerThanWater She makes an]] [[MyCountryRightOrWrong open criticism of her uncle]] (a philanderer who moved his mistress into the home after his wife's death) a highly disrespectful action in that time.

to:

** The first of the early warning signs that Mary Crawford is a BitchInSheepsClothing seem less blatant when looked at through modern eyes: [[ThickerThanWater She makes an]] [[MyCountryRightOrWrong open criticism of her uncle]] (a philanderer who moved his mistress into the home after his wife's death) death). Such criticism of her guardian was considered a highly disrespectful action in that time.
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unfortunate implications need citations


** KissingCousins and the infamous UnfortunateImplications.
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* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Jane is scathing of her own creation, the woefully inadequate Lady Bertram. However, modern readers might wonder at some underlying heart or autoimmune dysfunction undiagnosable at Austin's time of writing, particularly if she was based on a living template. Add a terrible education, the low social expectations of "proper ladies with money", no worthwhile support systems ''and'' Mrs Norris sticking her oar in for her own selfish reasons... How much of that flighty, inconsistent demeanour ''is'' actually personal, wilful laziness rather than symptomatic of ignored physiological, psychosocial and cognitive issues combining into something horrible for all concerned?

to:

* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Jane is scathing of her own creation, the woefully inadequate Lady Bertram. However, modern readers might wonder at some underlying heart or autoimmune dysfunction undiagnosable at Austin's time of writing, particularly if she was based on a living template. Add a terrible education, the low social expectations of "proper ladies with money", no worthwhile support systems ''and'' Mrs Norris sticking her oar in for her own selfish reasons... How much of that flighty, inconsistent demeanour ''is'' actually personal, wilful laziness rather than symptomatic of ignored physiological, psychosocial and cognitive issues combining into something horrible for all concerned?concerned? Is Lady Bertram just a violent disposition away from MadwomanInTheAttic, rather than her primarily self-imposed isolation from other family members due to an inability to cope?
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None


* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Jane is scathing of her own creation, the woefully inadequate Lady Bertram. However, modern readers might wonder at some underlying heart or autoimmune dysfunction undiagnosable at Austin's time of writing, particularly if she was based on a living template. Add a terrible education, no worthwhile support systems and Mrs Norris sticking her oar in for her own selfish reasons... How much of that flighty, inconsistent demeanour ''is'' actually wilful laziness rather than symptomatic of physiological and psychosocial issues combining into something horrible for all concerned?

to:

* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Jane is scathing of her own creation, the woefully inadequate Lady Bertram. However, modern readers might wonder at some underlying heart or autoimmune dysfunction undiagnosable at Austin's time of writing, particularly if she was based on a living template. Add a terrible education, the low social expectations of "proper ladies with money", no worthwhile support systems and ''and'' Mrs Norris sticking her oar in for her own selfish reasons... How much of that flighty, inconsistent demeanour ''is'' actually personal, wilful laziness rather than symptomatic of physiological and ignored physiological, psychosocial and cognitive issues combining into something horrible for all concerned?
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* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Jane is scathing of her own creation, the woefully inadequate Lady Bertram. However, modern readers might wonder at some underlying heart or autoimmune dysfunction undiagnosable at Austin's time of writing, particularly if she was based on a living template. Add a terrible education, no worthwhile support systems and Mrs Norris sticking her oar in for her own selfish reasons... How much of that flighty, inconsistent demeanour ''is'' actually wilful laziness rather than symptomatic of physiological and psychosocial issues combining into something horrible for all concerned?
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
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** Also, Edmund is opposed to the play on many grounds - but one of them is the 'indecency' of his sisters being on stage in front of an audience, even a small family audience, something we would not bat an eye at today. Granted, the participants then pick a romantic play and use the rehearsals as an excuse to flirt all over the place, so his objection still ends up justified by modern standards, but his incredibly deep objections when Tom begins the scheme are still puzzling to modern readers.

to:

** Also, Edmund is opposed to the play on many grounds - but one of them is the 'indecency' of his sisters being on stage in front of an audience, even a small family audience, something we would not bat an eye at today. Granted, the participants then pick a romantic play and use the rehearsals as an excuse to flirt all over the place, so his objection still ends up justified by modern standards, but his incredibly deep objections when Tom begins the scheme are still puzzling to modern readers.readers.
----

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corrected context


* TakeThat: Mary Crawford's plan to fix the mess at the end is to make Henry Crawford marry Maria after her divorce and to help the couple build some kind of life together -- the standard, expected, and accepted solution of the day -- despite the fact that Henry knowingly and willingly ruined her [[DoubleStandard (they all know their society punishes the woman more than the man in these cases)]] and that all sorts of careful manipulation will be necessary to convince him to go through with it. Edmund Bertram is disgusted by the suggestion that his sister marrying such a rake -- "the chance of a marriage which, thinking as I now thought of her brother, should rather be prevented than sought" -- could be seen as a happy ending.



** Also, Edmund is opposed to the play on many grounds - but one of them is the 'indecency' of his sisters being on stage in front of an audience, even a small family audience, something we would not bat an eye at today. Granted, the participants then pick a romantic play and use the rehearsals as an excuse to flirt all over the place, so his objection still ends up justified by modern standards, but his incredibly deep objections when Tom begins the scheme are still puzzling to modern readers.
** Mary Crawford is a bad person because she wants Henry Crawford to be made to marry Maria, after her divorce - and to help the couple build some kind of life together. Edmund Bertram is a good person because ''he'' wants to chew scenery agonizing over the sin and shame of it all and then banish his sister to outer darkness. Hmmm.

to:

** Also, Edmund is opposed to the play on many grounds - but one of them is the 'indecency' of his sisters being on stage in front of an audience, even a small family audience, something we would not bat an eye at today. Granted, the participants then pick a romantic play and use the rehearsals as an excuse to flirt all over the place, so his objection still ends up justified by modern standards, but his incredibly deep objections when Tom begins the scheme are still puzzling to modern readers.
** Mary Crawford is a bad person because she wants Henry Crawford to be made to marry Maria, after her divorce - and to help the couple build some kind of life together. Edmund Bertram is a good person because ''he'' wants to chew scenery agonizing over the sin and shame of it all and then banish his sister to outer darkness. Hmmm.
readers.
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** Also, Edmund is opposed to the play on many grounds - but one of them is the 'indecency' of his sisters being on stage in front of an audience, even a small family audience, something we would not bat an eye at today. Granted, the participants then pick a romantic play and use the rehearsals as an excuse to flirt all over the place, so his objection still ends up justified by modern standards, but his incredibly deep objections when Tom begins the scheme are still puzzling to modern readers.

to:

** Also, Edmund is opposed to the play on many grounds - but one of them is the 'indecency' of his sisters being on stage in front of an audience, even a small family audience, something we would not bat an eye at today. Granted, the participants then pick a romantic play and use the rehearsals as an excuse to flirt all over the place, so his objection still ends up justified by modern standards, but his incredibly deep objections when Tom begins the scheme are still puzzling to modern readers.readers.
** Mary Crawford is a bad person because she wants Henry Crawford to be made to marry Maria, after her divorce - and to help the couple build some kind of life together. Edmund Bertram is a good person because ''he'' wants to chew scenery agonizing over the sin and shame of it all and then banish his sister to outer darkness. Hmmm.

Changed: 198

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* StoicWoobie: Fanny
* TheyJustDidntCare: The cast of ''Lover's Vows'', with the exception of Mr. Yates, is concerned with the flirtations and betrayals which occur under cover of "rehearsals," rather than any serious attempt to produce the play.

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* StoicWoobie: Fanny
* TheyJustDidntCare: The cast of ''Lover's Vows'', with the exception of Mr. Yates, is concerned with the flirtations and betrayals which occur under cover of "rehearsals," rather than any serious attempt to produce the play.
Fanny.



** The first of the early warning signs that Mary Crawford is a BitchInSheepsClothing seem less blatant when looked at through modern eyes: [[ThickerThanWater She makes an]] [[MyCountryRightOrWrong open criticism of her uncle]], a highly disrespectful action in that time.
** Also, Edmund is opposed to the play on many grounds - but one of them is the 'indecency' of his sisters being on stage in front of an audience, even a small family audience, something we would not bat an eye at today. Granted, the participants then pick a romantic play and use the rehearsals as an excuse to flirt all over the place, so his objection still ends up justified.

to:

** The first of the early warning signs that Mary Crawford is a BitchInSheepsClothing seem less blatant when looked at through modern eyes: [[ThickerThanWater She makes an]] [[MyCountryRightOrWrong open criticism of her uncle]], uncle]] (a philanderer who moved his mistress into the home after his wife's death) a highly disrespectful action in that time.
** Also, Edmund is opposed to the play on many grounds - but one of them is the 'indecency' of his sisters being on stage in front of an audience, even a small family audience, something we would not bat an eye at today. Granted, the participants then pick a romantic play and use the rehearsals as an excuse to flirt all over the place, so his objection still ends up justified.justified by modern standards, but his incredibly deep objections when Tom begins the scheme are still puzzling to modern readers.

Changed: 842

Removed: 614

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** The first of the early warning signs that Mary Crawford is a BitchInSheepsClothing seem less blatant when looked at through modern eyes: [[ThickerThanWater She makes an]] [[MyCountryRightOrWrong open criticism of her uncle]], a highly disrespectful action in that time. Also, Edmund is opposed to the play on many grounds - but one of them is the 'indecency' of his sisters being on stage in front of an audience, something we would not bat an eye at today.
*** Except that, no matter how normal ''acting'' would be... it is still an excuse for Maria flirting with another boy than her fiance, right in front of him. This is still pretty mean-spirited by many current peoples's standards, and Fanny's disapproval on this ground is completely justified for those who think of it. Doing something close from flirting ''and'' playing on a way that could cause a bad reputation is something that can easily cause BigBrotherInstinct.
** Edmund's absolute ''horror'' over the idea of his sisters acting in a play... a play that is only intended to be a bit of private family fun in their own home. Granted, the participants then pick a romantic play that's implied to be bawdy and use the rehearsals as an excuse to flirt all over the place (particularly the engaged Maria and her non-fiance Henry Crawford). But Edmund's emphatic and narratively supported objections to the very notion, long before the mischief starts, come off as mountains out of molehills to modern readers who have probably been in ''multiple'' class plays from the age of six.

to:

** The first of the early warning signs that Mary Crawford is a BitchInSheepsClothing seem less blatant when looked at through modern eyes: [[ThickerThanWater She makes an]] [[MyCountryRightOrWrong open criticism of her uncle]], a highly disrespectful action in that time. time.
**
Also, Edmund is opposed to the play on many grounds - but one of them is the 'indecency' of his sisters being on stage in front of an audience, even a small family audience, something we would not bat an eye at today.
*** Except that, no matter how normal ''acting'' would be... it is still an excuse for Maria flirting with another boy than her fiance, right in front of him. This is still pretty mean-spirited by many current peoples's standards, and Fanny's disapproval on this ground is completely justified for those who think of it. Doing something close from flirting ''and'' playing on a way that could cause a bad reputation is something that can easily cause BigBrotherInstinct.
** Edmund's absolute ''horror'' over the idea of his sisters acting in a play... a play that is only intended to be a bit of private family fun in their own home.
today. Granted, the participants then pick a romantic play that's implied to be bawdy and use the rehearsals as an excuse to flirt all over the place (particularly the engaged Maria and her non-fiance Henry Crawford). But Edmund's emphatic and narratively supported objections to the very notion, long before the mischief starts, come off as mountains out of molehills to modern readers who have probably been in ''multiple'' class plays from the age of six.place, so his objection still ends up justified.
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*** Except that, no matter how normal ''acting'' would be... it is still an excuse for Maria flirting with another boy than her fiance, right in front of him. This is still pretty mean-spirited by many current peoples's standards, and Fanny's disapproval on this ground is completely justified for those who think of it. Doing something close from flirting ''and'' playing on a way that could cause a bad reputation is something that can easily cause BigBrotherInstinct.

to:

*** Except that, no matter how normal ''acting'' would be... it is still an excuse for Maria flirting with another boy than her fiance, right in front of him. This is still pretty mean-spirited by many current peoples's standards, and Fanny's disapproval on this ground is completely justified for those who think of it. Doing something close from flirting ''and'' playing on a way that could cause a bad reputation is something that can easily cause BigBrotherInstinct.BigBrotherInstinct.
** Edmund's absolute ''horror'' over the idea of his sisters acting in a play... a play that is only intended to be a bit of private family fun in their own home. Granted, the participants then pick a romantic play that's implied to be bawdy and use the rehearsals as an excuse to flirt all over the place (particularly the engaged Maria and her non-fiance Henry Crawford). But Edmund's emphatic and narratively supported objections to the very notion, long before the mischief starts, come off as mountains out of molehills to modern readers who have probably been in ''multiple'' class plays from the age of six.
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** Oh so much between Frances O'Connor and Embeth Davidtz in the 1999 movie.

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** Oh so much between Frances O'Connor and Embeth Davidtz in the 1999 movie.movie, at least for as long as Fanny isn't a serious contender for anyone's hand in marriage.

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* HilariousInHindsight: Mary Crawford blames Fanny for her brother eloping with Maria Rushworth, saying no harm would have been done if she had just married him, and his relationship with Maria "would have all ended in a regular standing flirtation, in yearly meetings at Sotherton and Everingham." A few decades later, it's like Anne Bronte read that alternate ending, wondered, "WhatIf", and wrote ''TheTenantOfWildfellHall'' to answer the question.

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* HilariousInHindsight: Mary Crawford blames Fanny for her brother eloping with Maria Rushworth, saying no harm would have been done if she had just married him, and his relationship with Maria "would have all ended in a regular standing flirtation, in yearly meetings at Sotherton and Everingham." A few decades later, it's like Anne Bronte read that alternate ending, wondered, "WhatIf", and wrote ''TheTenantOfWildfellHall'' ''Literature/TheTenantOfWildfellHall'' to answer the question.
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* HilariousInHindsight: Mary Crawford blames Fanny for her brother eloping with Maria Rushworth, saying no harm would have been done if she had just married him, and his relationship with Maria "would have all ended in a regular standing flirtation, in yearly meetings at Sotherton and Everingham." A few decades later, it's like Anne Bronte read that alternate ending, wondered, "WhatIf?", and wrote ''TheTenantOfWildfellHall'' to answer the question.

to:

* HilariousInHindsight: Mary Crawford blames Fanny for her brother eloping with Maria Rushworth, saying no harm would have been done if she had just married him, and his relationship with Maria "would have all ended in a regular standing flirtation, in yearly meetings at Sotherton and Everingham." A few decades later, it's like Anne Bronte read that alternate ending, wondered, "WhatIf?", "WhatIf", and wrote ''TheTenantOfWildfellHall'' to answer the question.
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* HilariousInHindsight: Mary Crawford blames Fanny for her brother eloping with Maria Rushworth, saying no harm would have been done if she had just married him, and his relationship with Maria "would have all ended in a regular standing flirtation, in yearly meetings at Sotherton and Everingham." A few decades later, it's like Anne Bronte read that alternate ending, wondered, "WhatIf?", and wrote ''TheTenantOfWildfellHall'' to answer the question.
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Fanny Price is not universally hated, therefore she\'s no Scrappy See this discussion,


* TheScrappy: Fanny is the least popular of Austen's heroines - though sometimes competing with [[{{Persuasion}} Anne Elliot]].
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** At least 2 {{Fan Sequel}}s -- ''Susan Price'' and ''Mansfield Revisited'' -- ship Fanny's sister Susan with Tom Bertram, leading to DoubleInLawMarriage.
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This isn\'t YMMV. Moving.


* DerailingLoveInterests: Edmund is generally a better person than Henry Crawford throughout the novel, but when Henry [[spoiler: runs off with Maria]], this seems substantially worse than anything we've seen from him so far. Some readers see it as Austen's attempt to justify Fanny's decision, while others see consistent moral development of character.
** A lot of scholars see his escape with Maria Bertram in the Rushworths's garden as a premisce of elopement, or a sexual intercourse. It symbolizes, at least, his willingness to ''almost'' help cheating on Maria's fiance.

Removed: 106

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Mrs Norris is not a Complete Monster. This trope requires running through a thread at the forum to decide whether the character fits. Mrs Norris was already ruled out in the past. (Not heinous enough, has redeeming qualities - she loves Maria and other Bertrams)


* CompleteMonster: Mrs. Norris.
** In the 1999 movie, she suffers VillainDecay and becomes merely annoying.

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