History Main / DeliberateValuesDissonance

24th Apr '16 11:30:07 PM Pichu-kun
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* ''Manga/FullmetalAlchemist'': Most people don't seem to mind that their government is a military dictatorship, just that it's an ''incredibly'' corrupt and amoral one. Roy Mustang's dream is to reform the parliament, but other members of the upper brass are perfectly happy with the dictatorship. Any reform seems to be a long time coming as Fuhrer Grumman seems to have no interest in it.

to:

* ''Manga/FullmetalAlchemist'': ''Manga/FullmetalAlchemist'':
**
Most people don't seem to mind that their government is a military dictatorship, just that it's an ''incredibly'' corrupt and amoral one. Roy Mustang's dream is to reform the parliament, but other members of the upper brass are perfectly happy with the dictatorship. Any reform seems to be a long time coming as Fuhrer Grumman seems to have no interest in it.



* ''BlackButler'' has some fun with this. Elizabeth doesn't have any problem with Nina Hopkins sexually assaulting Mey-Rin; after all, Mey-Rin is just the hired help, and hell, Elizabeth practically does the same thing. No, what makes her gasp and blush is Nina showing off her ''legs''.
* In the Jaya flashback story in ''OnePiece'', the Shandians were willing to sacrifice Calgara's daughter to their snake god because their village was plagued with disease and death and they believed this would appease the snake god. The explorer Noland did not take this well.

to:

* ''BlackButler'' ''Manga/BlackButler'' has some fun with this. Elizabeth doesn't have any problem with Nina Hopkins sexually assaulting Mey-Rin; after all, Mey-Rin is just the hired help, and hell, Elizabeth practically does the same thing. No, what makes her gasp and blush is Nina showing off her ''legs''.
* In the Jaya flashback story in ''OnePiece'', ''Manga/OnePiece'', the Shandians were willing to sacrifice Calgara's daughter to their snake god because their village was plagued with disease and death and they believed this would appease the snake god. The explorer Noland did not take this well.


Added DiffLines:

* ''Manga/ABridesStory'' takes place in the late 1800s and is full of this, such as how Amir is a ChristmasCake at the ripe old age of twenty. The very premise is an example in itself: Amir has an ArrangedMarriage to a twelve-year old boy named Karluk.
18th Apr '16 7:36:24 PM damus2300
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

* Zig-zagged in ''Film/MontyPythonAndTheHolyGrail''. Hygiene is ignored and witchcraft is believed to exist but some characters criticize autocratic monarchy.
18th Apr '16 7:32:11 PM damus2300
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' and it's TV adaptation ''Series/GameOfThrones'', much like the books that it comes from, has this in spades. Slavery, racism, sexism, prejudice against bastards and dwarves. A brutal massacre committed by a treacherous House causes them to be ostracized by everyone... not because of the massacre itself but because the massacred were their ''[[SacredHospitality guests]]''.

to:

* ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' and it's TV adaptation ''Series/GameOfThrones'', much like the books that it comes from, ''Series/GameOfThrones'' has this in spades. Slavery, racism, sexism, prejudice against bastards and dwarves. A brutal massacre committed by a treacherous House causes them to be ostracized by everyone... not because of the massacre itself but because the massacred were their ''[[SacredHospitality guests]]''.
18th Apr '16 7:30:34 PM damus2300
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'':
** Trial by combat, where each side is represented by a champion in a fight to the death, with [[MightMakesRight the victor "obviously" right in the eyes of the gods]], is quite popular.
** Tyrion Lannister, who is otherwise one of the most sympathetic characters in the series, makes some rather snarky comments regarding the hill tribes' practice of not only ''[[DemocracyIsBad electing]]'' their chieftains, but also allowing women to vote and hold office (though his primary issue with the democratic process is simply how ''long'' it takes to make decisions). He is also ridiculed for not deflowering and impregnating his bride... who is twelve or thirteen, is an [[TheIngenue ingenue]] married to a scarred and ugly man with dwarfism, and was wed to him primarily to bring her lands under his family's control. The fact that taking her would require exploiting the MaritalRapeLicense bothers nobody but him (well, and her too, but who cares what ''she'' thinks?)
** People of Westeros generally have StayInTheKitchen attitudes and women are expected to become mothers and wives, not warriors. {{Action Girl}}s like Brienne of Tarth often meet with prejudice and discrimination.
** Political {{Arranged Marriage}}s are prevalent, typically as land-grab tactics, and sometimes feature underage or unwilling participants. In addition to Tyrion's marriage, one of his cousins is betrothed to a girl ''less than a year old'' (he's later killed in a riot, leading to a semi-amusing instance of someone being widowed before she was weaned.)
** In Westeros, DroitDuSeigneur was officially abolished about one hundred years prior to the start of the series; however, it's an open secret that several noble houses still practice it. It comes as no surprise that the [[ChronicBackstabbingDisorder treacherous]] Boltons are among these houses; what is surprising is that the Umbers, who have otherwise been portrayed as honorable and loyal allies of the Starks, do as well (although it's worth noting, [[UnreliableNarrator the only source we have on this is the aforementioned treacherous Lord Bolton, who doesn't like the Umbers much]]).
** Deliberate culture clash is seen in Daenerys's chapters in the first book. She (and by extension, the reader) are completely uninformed about Dothraki culture, and so many of the customs are seen as strange to her. The Dothraki are very horse-oriented and many aspects of their culture reflect that; their word for horse-riding, ''rakh'', is even right there in their name. Some of their customs include no taboo against public nudity or sex, and the consumption of horseflesh. Dany is given a horse at her wedding and is discouraged from naming it; it is only known in the books as "her silver".
** The wildlings, who live north of the Wall, base their entire culture around the idea that there are no laws other than AsskickingEqualsAuthority. This becomes a source of discord between Jon and Ygritte, who occasionally argue about the differences between their cultures.
** The Frey family's rise to prominence through legitimate business may be inspiring to modern readers but they are seen as upstarts by the snobby Great Houses who got their status usually through violence and conquest and are (supposedly) descendants of legendary folk heroes. The fact that they generally consist of obnoxious assholes who like to throw their (perceived) weight around fellow houses is probably another reason why they get little respect.
** The Targaryen royal family [[RoyalInbreeding practiced incest]]. Marriages between siblings or close cousins were arranged to keep “purity of the bloodline” (specifically silver-gold hair and purple eyes, trademarks of Old Valyria) and to prove that Targaryens were "above the laws of gods and men." As history proved, [[RoyallyScrewedUp they weren't above the laws of genetics]].
** [[HornyVikings Ironborn culture]]: TestosteronePoisoning rules. Wearing jewelry is only tolerated if it was taken by force instead of bought - "paying the iron price" (women can buy jewelry, because of course women are weak and are not expected to go plundering like men). Entertainers are tolerated but aren't liked. Music and poetry are seen as feminine. Education is also frowned upon and men who become maesters are seen as less than men. [[DoubleStandard People still make use of them.]]
** Slavery is very common in some parts of the world, and while Westeros culture and Daenarys might be against it, several characters we meet aren't, including Dany's own husband Khal Drogo.
** A much more subtle example is that Tywin Lannister and Olenna Tyrell are viewed as ancient with only a few years left in them, and speak of their own deaths as an imminent certainty. Tywin is either 57 or 58 when he dies - middle-aged today but somewhat past the lifespan of most men in pre-industrial times - even kings and powerful lords usually snuffed it sometime between 45 and 55 ''without'' foul play. Olena is 71 or 72 - old by almost any standard, but a venerable ancient in such societies, though even then, being female was a big help (as long as one survived childbirth). It's no wonder half of Lord Walder Frey's family think he should die already : He's over 90 years old, His first son Stevron is older than Tywin and he has at least one ten years old great-great-grand-son...

to:

* ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'':
** Trial by combat, where each side is represented by a champion in a fight to
''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' and it's TV adaptation ''Series/GameOfThrones'', much like the death, with [[MightMakesRight the victor "obviously" right in the eyes of the gods]], is quite popular.
** Tyrion Lannister, who is otherwise one of the most sympathetic characters in the series, makes some rather snarky comments regarding the hill tribes' practice of not only ''[[DemocracyIsBad electing]]'' their chieftains, but also allowing women to vote and hold office (though his primary issue with the democratic process is simply how ''long'' it takes to make decisions). He is also ridiculed for not deflowering and impregnating his bride... who is twelve or thirteen, is an [[TheIngenue ingenue]] married to a scarred and ugly man with dwarfism, and was wed to him primarily to bring her lands under his family's control. The fact
books that taking her would require exploiting the MaritalRapeLicense bothers nobody but him (well, and her too, but who cares what ''she'' thinks?)
** People of Westeros generally have StayInTheKitchen attitudes and women are expected to become mothers and wives, not warriors. {{Action Girl}}s like Brienne of Tarth often meet with
it comes from, has this in spades. Slavery, racism, sexism, prejudice against bastards and discrimination.
** Political {{Arranged Marriage}}s are prevalent, typically as land-grab tactics, and sometimes feature underage or unwilling participants. In addition to Tyrion's marriage, one of his cousins is betrothed to
dwarves. A brutal massacre committed by a girl ''less than a year old'' (he's later killed in a riot, leading to a semi-amusing instance of someone being widowed before she was weaned.)
** In Westeros, DroitDuSeigneur was officially abolished about one hundred years prior to the start of the series; however, it's an open secret that several noble houses still practice it. It comes as no surprise that the [[ChronicBackstabbingDisorder treacherous]] Boltons are among these houses; what is surprising is that the Umbers, who have otherwise been portrayed as honorable and loyal allies of the Starks, do as well (although it's worth noting, [[UnreliableNarrator the only source we have on this is the aforementioned
treacherous Lord Bolton, who doesn't like the Umbers much]]).
** Deliberate culture clash is seen in Daenerys's chapters in the first book. She (and
House causes them to be ostracized by extension, the reader) are completely uninformed about Dothraki culture, and so many of the customs are seen as strange to her. The Dothraki are very horse-oriented and many aspects of their culture reflect that; their word for horse-riding, ''rakh'', is even right there in their name. Some of their customs include no taboo against public nudity or sex, and the consumption of horseflesh. Dany is given a horse at her wedding and is discouraged from naming it; it is only known in the books as "her silver".
** The wildlings, who live north of the Wall, base their entire culture around the idea that there are no laws other than AsskickingEqualsAuthority. This becomes a source of discord between Jon and Ygritte, who occasionally argue about the differences between their cultures.
** The Frey family's rise to prominence through legitimate business may be inspiring to modern readers but they are seen as upstarts by the snobby Great Houses who got their status usually through violence and conquest and are (supposedly) descendants of legendary folk heroes. The fact that they generally consist of obnoxious assholes who like to throw their (perceived) weight around fellow houses is probably another reason why they get little respect.
** The Targaryen royal family [[RoyalInbreeding practiced incest]]. Marriages between siblings or close cousins were arranged to keep “purity of the bloodline” (specifically silver-gold hair and purple eyes, trademarks of Old Valyria) and to prove that Targaryens were "above the laws of gods and men." As history proved, [[RoyallyScrewedUp they weren't above the laws of genetics]].
** [[HornyVikings Ironborn culture]]: TestosteronePoisoning rules. Wearing jewelry is only tolerated if it was taken by force instead of bought - "paying the iron price" (women can buy jewelry,
everyone... not because of course women are weak and are not expected to go plundering like men). Entertainers are tolerated the massacre itself but aren't liked. Music and poetry are seen as feminine. Education is also frowned upon and men who become maesters are seen as less than men. [[DoubleStandard People still make use of them.]]
** Slavery is very common in some parts of
because the world, and while Westeros culture and Daenarys might be against it, several characters we meet aren't, including Dany's own husband Khal Drogo.
** A much more subtle example is that Tywin Lannister and Olenna Tyrell are viewed as ancient with only a few years left in them, and speak of
massacred were their own deaths as an imminent certainty. Tywin is either 57 or 58 when he dies - middle-aged today but somewhat past the lifespan of most men in pre-industrial times - even kings and powerful lords usually snuffed it sometime between 45 and 55 ''without'' foul play. Olena is 71 or 72 - old by almost any standard, but a venerable ancient in such societies, though even then, being female was a big help (as long as one survived childbirth). It's no wonder half of Lord Walder Frey's family think he should die already : He's over 90 years old, His first son Stevron is older than Tywin and he has at least one ten years old great-great-grand-son...''[[SacredHospitality guests]]''.



* ''ColdCase'' played this for all it was worth. Expect at least five episodes a season to make the ''era'' the case's real monster, while savagely taking a [[PlanescapeTorment Chris]] [[VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublic Avellone]]-level DeconstructorFleet to the notion that earlier decades were happier, more innocent times.

to:

* ''ColdCase'' ''Series/ColdCase'' played this for all it was worth. Expect at least five episodes a season to make the ''era'' the case's real monster, while savagely taking a [[PlanescapeTorment Chris]] [[VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublic Avellone]]-level DeconstructorFleet to the notion that earlier decades were happier, more innocent times.



* In the ''[[Series/TheTwilightZone Twilight Zone]]'' episode "No Time Like the Past", after the main character decides [[BornInTheWrongCentury to live out the rest of his life in the year 1881]], he gets into a conversation about global politics with someone from that time. The native goes on about how war is the best measure of the strength of a nation and that the United States should fight wars of conquest against Asia and South America. This angers the main character who says that going down that road will lead to disaster and untold loss of life. ([[CaptainObvious He's right.]]) He is criticized for this belief. Of course, [[SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped the whole point of that episode was to show that]] NostalgiaAintLikeItUsedToBe.

to:

* In the ''[[Series/TheTwilightZone Twilight Zone]]'' ''Series/TheTwilightZone'' episode "No Time Like the Past", after the main character decides [[BornInTheWrongCentury to live out the rest of his life in the year 1881]], he gets into a conversation about global politics with someone from that time. The native goes on about how war is the best measure of the strength of a nation and that the United States should fight wars of conquest against Asia and South America. This angers the main character who says that going down that road will lead to disaster and untold loss of life. ([[CaptainObvious He's right.]]) He is criticized for this belief. Of course, [[SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped the whole point of that episode was to show that]] NostalgiaAintLikeItUsedToBe.



* ''Series/GameOfThrones'', much like the books that it comes from, has this in spades. Slavery, racism, sexism, prejudice against bastards and dwarves. A brutal massacre committed by a treacherous House causes them to be ostracized by everyone... not because of the massacre itself but because the massacred were their ''[[SacredHospitality guests]]''.
14th Apr '16 3:54:10 PM TARINunit9
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* The ''Literature/CiaphasCain'' series is a much LighterAndSofter depiction of ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}'' than other media, but still presents The Imperium as, well, TheEmpire. In ''For The Emperor'', Cain himself is repeatedly alienated and disturbed by the Tau and their human sympathisers, making comments about how he cannot see "xenos" as people, being horrified to hear a separatist tell him to go back to "[his] Emperor", and being cheerful of the prospect of the seperatists getting pummeled by the loyalists. In the same book, Inquisitor Vail cheerfully reminisces of one of her favorite childhood songs... which is a disturbingly cheerful ditty about heretics being crushed under the tracks of a [[TankGoodness Land Raider]]. In ''Caves of Ice'', she likewise quips fondly of her favorite children's book, which depicts people being gruesomely burned alive for being heretics (i.e. humans who don't follow the Imperium). ''Cain's Last Stand'' casually mentions vans with convicts heading to a military orphanage "for live ammo exercises".

to:

* The ''Literature/CiaphasCain'' series is a much LighterAndSofter depiction of ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}'' than other media, but still presents The Imperium as, well, TheEmpire. In ''For The Emperor'', Cain himself is repeatedly alienated and disturbed by the Tau and their human sympathisers, sympathizers, making comments about how he cannot see "xenos" as people, being horrified to hear a separatist tell him to go back to "[his] Emperor", and being cheerful of the prospect of the seperatists separatists getting pummeled by the loyalists. In the same book, Inquisitor Vail cheerfully reminisces of one of her favorite childhood songs... which is a disturbingly cheerful ditty about heretics being crushed under the tracks of a [[TankGoodness Land Raider]]. In ''Caves of Ice'', she likewise quips fondly of her favorite children's book, which depicts people being gruesomely burned alive for being heretics (i.e. humans who don't follow the Imperium). ''Cain's Last Stand'' casually mentions vans with convicts heading to a military orphanage "for live ammo exercises".


Added DiffLines:

* ''VideoGame/DukeNukemForever'' takes place in a world where [[ItsAllAboutMe Duke Nukem]] can do no wrong. He is, almost literally, [[CanonSue the center of the universe]]. As a result, many, ''many'' of his actions and one-liners would be considered [[DudeNotFunny seriously rude, often downright misogynistic]] in the real world.
13th Apr '16 1:58:14 PM DracoKanji
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** Used humorously with the elves, who are cannibals who eat the corpses of their enemies, but refuse to trade with you (or even go to war!) if you offer products that were made by cutting down a tree.

to:

** Used humorously with the elves, who are cannibals who eat the corpses of their enemies, but refuse to trade with you (or even go to war!) if you offer products that were made by cutting down a tree. Including [[HypocriticalHumor wooden items you just bought from them]].
5th Apr '16 3:41:13 PM WildeOscar
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* ''Film/{{Help}}'' - it may seem disconcerting to see Music/TheBeatles (especially Lennon) referring to "filthy Eastern ways" regarding their cultist pursuers, but all the deliberately stilted dialog in the movie is meant to invoke old movie and adventure novel cliches.

to:

* ''Film/{{Help}}'' - it may seem disconcerting to see Music/TheBeatles (especially Lennon) Lennon, although it's very obvious from his facial expression and tone of voice that he is mocking such attitudes) referring to "filthy Eastern ways" regarding their cultist pursuers, but all the deliberately stilted dialog in the movie is meant to invoke old movie and adventure novel cliches.
2nd Apr '16 5:41:56 AM Morgenthaler
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** A much more subtle example is that Tywin Lannister and Olenna Tyrell are viewed as ancient with only a few years left in them, and speak of their own deaths as an imminent certainty. Tywin is either 57 or 58 when he dies - middle-aged today but somewhat past the lifespan of most men in pre-industrial times - even kings and powerful lords usually snuffed it sometime between 45 and 55 ''without'' foul play. Olena is 71 or 72 - old by almost any standard, but a venerable ancient in such societies, though even then, being female was a big help (as long as one survived childbirth).
*** It's no wonder half of Lord Walder Frey's family think he should die already : He's over 90 years old, His first son Stevron is older than Tywin and he has at least one ten years old great-great-grand-son...

to:

** A much more subtle example is that Tywin Lannister and Olenna Tyrell are viewed as ancient with only a few years left in them, and speak of their own deaths as an imminent certainty. Tywin is either 57 or 58 when he dies - middle-aged today but somewhat past the lifespan of most men in pre-industrial times - even kings and powerful lords usually snuffed it sometime between 45 and 55 ''without'' foul play. Olena is 71 or 72 - old by almost any standard, but a venerable ancient in such societies, though even then, being female was a big help (as long as one survived childbirth).
***
childbirth). It's no wonder half of Lord Walder Frey's family think he should die already : He's over 90 years old, His first son Stevron is older than Tywin and he has at least one ten years old great-great-grand-son...
2nd Apr '16 5:38:07 AM Morgenthaler
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** The Targaryen family practiced incest. Marriages between siblings or close cousins were arranged to keep “purity of the bloodline” (specifically silver-gold hair and purple eyes, trademarks of Old Valyria) and to prove that Targaryens were "above the laws of gods and men." As history proved, [[RoyallyScrewedUp they weren't above the laws of genetics]].

to:

** The Targaryen royal family [[RoyalInbreeding practiced incest.incest]]. Marriages between siblings or close cousins were arranged to keep “purity of the bloodline” (specifically silver-gold hair and purple eyes, trademarks of Old Valyria) and to prove that Targaryens were "above the laws of gods and men." As history proved, [[RoyallyScrewedUp they weren't above the laws of genetics]].
2nd Apr '16 5:30:29 AM Morgenthaler
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** Tyrion Lannister, who is otherwise one of the most sympathetic characters in the series, makes some rather snarky comments regarding the hill tribes' practice of not only ''electing'' their chieftains, but also allowing women to vote and hold office (though his primary issue with the democratic process is simply how ''long'' it takes to make decisions). He is also ridiculed for not deflowering and impregnating his bride... who is twelve or thirteen, is an [[TheIngenue ingenue]] married to a scarred and ugly man with dwarfism, and was wed to him primarily to bring her lands under his family's control. The fact that taking her would require exploiting the MaritalRapeLicense bothers nobody but him (well, and her too, but who cares what ''she'' thinks?)

to:

** Tyrion Lannister, who is otherwise one of the most sympathetic characters in the series, makes some rather snarky comments regarding the hill tribes' practice of not only ''electing'' ''[[DemocracyIsBad electing]]'' their chieftains, but also allowing women to vote and hold office (though his primary issue with the democratic process is simply how ''long'' it takes to make decisions). He is also ridiculed for not deflowering and impregnating his bride... who is twelve or thirteen, is an [[TheIngenue ingenue]] married to a scarred and ugly man with dwarfism, and was wed to him primarily to bring her lands under his family's control. The fact that taking her would require exploiting the MaritalRapeLicense bothers nobody but him (well, and her too, but who cares what ''she'' thinks?)
This list shows the last 10 events of 988. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.DeliberateValuesDissonance