Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

is there any way that we could make an index or list of works in the 40k universe? I'd like to have a place to add links to specific works (which are, of course, many, hence the length of the page...), and obviously the trope examples section isn't it. - Thespaceinvader

Goldfritha: Good idea.

Fading Echo: May I ask what the heck is with the Necron hate here? Yeah, they were a little over-the-top when they were introduced, but what faction isn't over the top? Yes, they were initially presented as an unstoppable force of doom-so were Chaos, the Tyranids, etc when they were first introduced. They all still are, if you think about it. *Every* race was Mary Sue-ish when first introduced. I really don't see why folks zero in on the Necrons as remotely special in that regard.

Roland: The main problem with the Necrons was that they weren't interesting. Chaos is the classical foe of the Warhammer 40k universe, and are ultimately seen as the setting's primary source of conflict. It is Chaos that set the downfall of the Imperium into motion. It's Chaos that has always been the looming danger on the horizon. Chaos has a variety of warped personalities and a lot of background detail, as do the Orks and the Eldar. (The Tyranids are always portrayed as more a natural disaster than a foe per se.)

By contrast, the Necrons are just a mindless horde of omnicidal robots, who, from their very first appearance, usurped Chaos' role as the progenitor of everything wrong in the 40k 'verse. But where Chaos is a horde of demented individuals, the Necrons are simply a mass of faceless mooks- and they're always touted as utterly unbeatable, utterly ancient, and utterly evil, almost as if their writers were trying to one-up Chaos, the real Big Bad of the 40k 'verse! The players were expected to swallow a lot more with the Necrons, because the claims of the Necrons to supremacy were far more extravagant than those given any other faction. But they simply aren't a very interesting army, since they lack individuals, internal dynamics, or even a cool theme- they're just sinister skeletal robots! There's only been a couple times the Necrons were presented as genuinely scary, and they're always in the Ciaphas Cain books.

Fading Echo: You're like most people regarding the Necrons, then-you only looked at the surface. The Necrons were *never* the progenitors of everything wrong-true, they were perhaps the original cause, but no more than that. It's true that the Necrons and C'Tan are utterly malevolent as far as the Imperium knows, but before Flanderization from the fanbase, there were hints that not all was what it appeared with the Necrons. *That* was the Necron theme, not the "omnicidal robot skeleton" thing-it's quite clearly stated in the original Necron codex that they have no intention of killing everything. That would be counterproductive to their actual goals. The signature theme of the Necrons isn't even that they're scary-it's that they're an intelligent race beyond human understanding-they're so ancient that applying any standards of time is meaningless, their attacks have no discernible rhyme or reason to them, yet they must have some unknowable purpose. Theirs is the Lovecraftian style of Cosmic Horror, not Chaos' more biblical apocalypse sort.

Yes, the Necron Codex presented them as unstoppable. Every Codex portrays their own race that way. You don't read about the Orks getting slaughtered in droves in their Codex, you don't read about Eldar plans that were turned on their head and annihilated in the Eldar Codex. Yes, there are no individuals or internal dynamics before 5E started thrashing them, for a simple reason: no one knows anything about the Necron hierarchy. For all we know, Necrons have politics just as rife and complex as the Imperium, but we wouldn't know about it because anyone who has learned about it hasn't survived to report back. Xenology clearly indicates that the Necrons have personality aplenty, when they choose to show it. But they seldom do, and indeed, why would they? The Necrons have no need to talk with the other races in general, and seem to prefer avoiding battle except when attacking.

Kaelis Ra: They are not just robots. They have a background (pre-necronization) that rivals the Horus heresy in terms of sheer heartbreaking, and their ultimate betrayal is, in my opinion, one of the saddest moments of the entire fluff. Furthermore, the Deciever and Nightbringer add quite a bit of flavor to it, with them being gods and all (the only material ones). Plus, they shoot lightning. Green. Lightning.

Large Blunt Object: Moved miles of old discussion to Warhammer 40000 Discussion Archive.

Also, a few statistics about this page: as of September 11 2008, it is both the longest Works page on the entire wiki (at over 250kb) and the fifteenth longest altogether, the second most linked-to Works page (after Tanz der Vampire) and 22nd most linked-to page overall, and 10th most non-Kilowick Trope Overdosed. We done good, people.

Shay Guy: Seeing as many tropers are American, you may wanna specify for future notice that you mean September 11, not November 9.

Large Blunt Object: ...hmm, I did pick a bit of an unfortunate day to do my counting. >_>

Large Blunt Object: Getting really tired of crappy shoehorned tropes. This page is already sublimely overdosed, do not need unpunctuated, questionable or outright wrong tropes.

Reasoning.

So:

Aristocrats Are Evil (Power corrupts, and in this setting, "corrupts" means Chaos.)

This does not fit. "All aristocrats are Chaos-corrupted?" Shred of evidence, besides that one guy in Eisenhorn?

Which is why my original parenthetical read (or really out of touch). Read Gaunt's Ghosts and the Lexicanum-most Imperial aristocrats are badly divorced from the real world, and a number are corrupt. Granted, some degree of corruption is fairly standard in 40k.

Large Blunt Object: So why change the bracketed text...? Okay, that one can stay, but I think it either needs a much more general text bit or none at all. Hiring Dark Eldar to sort their shit out, joining cults, all manner of corrupt bargains... a long way from all aristocrats are evil, but there are enough examples to justify it. That one's fine.

Boobs Of Steel (Wyches, Slaaneshi daemons.)

No. No correlation between cup size and power.

You're somewhat missing the point-both Wyches and Slaaneshi daemons are very dangerous in melee, and generally regarded as elite melee combatants. Both have exaggerated anatomical features.

Large Blunt Object: And you're somewhat missing the point of the trope, which is "in a group of women, the one with the biggest tits has the most power". That's what Boobs Of Steel is about. That doesn't happen.

Fading Echo: It does when you include Keepers of Secrets and the Wych leaders (Succubi, I think they're called), but that is admittedly stretching the point.

Broken Masquerade (This happening to Horus was the beginning of the Horus Heresy.)

Broken Masquerade is an index. We already have The Unmasqued World, a sub-trope of Broken Masquerade, about that event.

And Broken Masquerade is itself an example, not just an index.

Large Blunt Object: You're right. That one can stay.

Creepy Monotone (When they choose to speak, Necrons and the C'Tan are made of this trope)

Genuine Necrons never speak, outside of Soulstorm. Macabee in Dark Crusade was a Necronified human, not an actual Necron. The Deceiver doesn't indulge in a creepy monotone at all.

Go read Xenology, among other things. Necron Lords can and do talk when they choose to, and speak in nothing but completely calm monotones. They simply choose not to talk most of the time.

Large Blunt Object: Xenology, which is outright non-canon for the other fluff-contradicting things that go on in it? The only other "Lord talking" was in Deus Ex Mechanicus, and that turned out to be a C'tan anyway. "Might, depending on canon interpretation", but I'd sooner leave it out, and much sooner not say "Necrons [implied "in general"] are masters of this", because even then it's only ever been Lords.

Fading Echo: Fluff contradicts itself all the time-it happens. Xenology is considered canon, and when the only Necrons that are known to be able to speak do so in a creepy monotone, I believe it fits.

Crush Kill Destroy (The Iron Men)

Not what Crush Kill Destroy is even about.

Okay, you have a point here. Double-checked the trope entry.

Don't Touch It, You Idiot! (Common sentiment from the Eldar and Adeptus Mechanicus regarding humanity.)

Shoehorned and terrible; go and read the trope page.

Hardly. When the Eldar or Ad Mech seal away something horrible, it is inevitable humans will come along and dig it right back out.

Large Blunt Object: Admech seal things away...? Other than Noctus Labyrinthis (which they're doing okay on not touching, so far), what have they sealed away rather than gone "whoopee, knowledge!" and leaped all over? Eldar hiding Chaos and Necron artifacts might fit. Just. It's not so much "Don't touch it!" as "DIE NOW".

Equal-Opportunity Evil (Pariahs and psykers are justifiably treated poorly by the Imperium-and relatively less so by the Necrons and Chaos, respectively)

Uh, no.

Pariah gene carriers tend to get hauled off by the Inquisition as soon as they're found to become Culexus assassins or otherwise aid the Inquisition, and you know what that means. It's hinted that Pariahs are actually among the most favored of the C'Tan, being the next phase of the C'Tan plans for the galaxy. Pyskers are justifiably feared and hated in the Imperium. Chaos at least values them for their psychic gifts.

Large Blunt Object: No they don't. In the Imperium, Untouchables are generally free to live their (miserable, because of their condition) lives, and there is by no means a concerted effort to either hunt them down or force them to be Culexus Assassins - Eisenhorn's Distaff employed, rather than enslaved. Necrons bind them into horrible undead abominations, which has not exactly been described as a voluntary process. Chaos more often than not eat psykers' souls, use them as possession vessels or sacrifice them to the Chaos gods rather than make conventional use of them. Neither qualify as an "equal opportunity employer".

Fading Echo: However, Chaos *does* make conventional use of psykers, and more commonly, Chaos willingly makes use of any race or species willing to embrace Chaos-the Imperium doesn't, but you can find all races embracing Chaos, with the same favor (or lack thereof) of human followers. The Necrons may also qualify, sort of, if you consider the Skopios Incident and the results of Necron harvests (entire planetary populations missing)-it's strongly hinted in the details of the Skopios Incident that the Necrons can convert ordinary human beings into Necron warriors-though this may be a different trope. Folks who complained about it being implied in Soulstorm clearly didn't see the bit of fluff released in the Armageddon campaign about what happened to a unit of Elysian Drop Troops...

Large Blunt Object: As I recall, that was just a factory producing Necrons, and had no hint that humans were being converted, but that was a long time ago. And that doesn't fit this trope anyway. Chaos being Equal Opportunity Corruption (you know, unless you're Eldar, Ork or Tau...) would fit, though.

Evil Prince (Horus, the first and most favored son of the Emperor)

Double no. Are you even reading the trope pages?

I am, and Horus fit during his corruption-Horus simply skipped the subtle methods and kicked off a massive civil war.

Large Blunt Object: Horus didn't want to be Emperor, though; he just wanted to destroy what his father had created. It's vengeance, not ambition, and I don't think it fits.

Fading Echo: Okay, you got me there.

Heroic BSoD (Occupational hazard for Space Marines and Imperial Guard officers)

Only not.

Almost every character in the Horus Heresy series, Commissar Gaunt, Colonel Corbec, Ciaphas Cain to an extent, etc.

Large Blunt Object: Can hardly be described as an "occupational hazard", and if those are the examples they should go on the Gaunts Ghosts and Ciaphas Cain pages - created to get the more specific character and story tropes away from here.

Fading Echo: However, it's implied in those stories, however, that such attitudes and feelings are common among veteran Imperial Guard officers and Space Marines, or at least among the intellectual ones.

The Law of Diminishing Defensive Effort (Mainly applies to Space Marines, Necrons and more powerful Tyranids or Daemons)

...what?

Read the trope page-the less a character tries to defend himself, the less likely it is they *need* to defend themselves. Most powerful daemons, Tyranids, Necrons, and veteran space marines (especially Primarchs) don't take any defensive measures when fighting anyone less than a near-equal, because they simply don't need to. Lesser enemies simply don't pose much of a threat to them.

Large Blunt Object: You said it yourself - big nasty things don't get hurt, not "because" they aren't trying (as the Law trope goes), it's because they're really really hard to hurt. It's completely averted for things which can actually be hurt - look at "dodge" saves, or Weapon Skill making you harder to hit. Big nasty things not dodging and parrying is fully justified because they're next-to-invincible, so it's not a case of Law Of Diminishing Defensive Effort, just Implacable Man. In game terms, 40k is a comprehensive aversion.

Fading Echo: However, if you read the examples given on the trope page, you'll see that 40k's big stuff does go for the trope. Really is something of a case of a duplicate trope, I'll admit, but 40k does play it straight.

Made of Plasticine (Justified mainly by the pervasiveness of Chainsaw Good.)

Doesn't fit at all. Made of Plasticine is about the unrealistic fragility of the human form. With the kind of firepower getting chucked abut in 40k, it is wholly justified.

The phrase Justified Trope spring to mind? Humans generally are treated as extremely fragile in 40k. Justified, but present.

Large Blunt Object: "Humans being shredded" is justified, not the trope Made of Plasticine. I'll repeat: Made of Plasticine is when people get torn apart when they shouldn't be. 40k doesn't have that, because people get shredded in absolutely realistic ways given the stupid power of the weapons involved. From the trope page: when the human body is represented as being much flimsier and more easily dismembered than it really is

My Significance Sense Is Tingling (Common with psykers.)

I'm going to be saying this a lot, but go and read the page.

I did. Lord Of The Night and Fulgrim present the best example: psykers can and do generally sense whenever Very Bad Things happen-in Fulgrim's case, Erebus sensed the results of the battle for Prospero from Istvaan.

Large Blunt Object: That can stay, but "Common with psykers" is still going a bit too far.

No-Holds-Barred Beatdown (There's no other kind in this setting.)

No. Read the damn page!

Take your own advice. Aside from honor duels between fellow Marines and the like, have you honestly seen any aversions to this trope?

Large Blunt Object: Because that's about a scene... argh. No-Holds-Barred Beatdown is about one particular scene of violent beating-up. It's not a general "violence is bloody and awful". Can you honestly say there are a few specific moments of horrible beatdowns, standing out as more nasty than all the rest? This is what I mean by shoehorned. It almost fits, because every fight in 40k is like this, but a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown is a specific violently horrible scene, and 40k is all violence and horror.

Nominal Importance (Averted-having a name is of no help whatsoever in this setting, even for planets.)

Aversions don't bear listing, unless this is the first stage in the plan to add things like "Ridiculously Cute Critter" (averted - they're all monsters).

Except 40k averts this one ridiculously enough to merit mention.

No New Fashions in the Future (Gothic-style for the Imperium.)

Nonsense - massive diversity in clothing and "new fashions".

Note that this one I did not add.

Large Blunt Object: No, you just returned it when I cut it...

Fading Echo: Was starting to be a habit. My mistake.

Paranoia Fuel (Do we really have to start giving examples at this point?)

Idiocy. It makes you afraid of Night Lords coming in through the window, huh? Or daemons eating you?

... stop taking things so seriously. 40k *should* inspire paranoia fuel, full blown-daemons, psykers, the pariah gene, Nids, etc. But 40k generally doesn't feel that way because everything is so over-the-top insane.

Large Blunt Object: So, the trope doesn't fit. Right.

Rage Against the Mentor (May have been a factor in the Horus Heresy. Definitely a factor in human-Eldar relations)

Eldar = absolutely not mentors, and the Horus Heresy thing is extremely questionable.

The Eldar don't see it that way-when they try to "guide" humanity. Not questionable at all in the Horus Heresy-before the book Legion, the main reason for the Alpha Legion's betrayal was hatred of Papa Smurf, and still present and active in Angron, Perturabo, and Magnus.

Large Blunt Object: The Eldar sort of fit into the page's description, but it speaks specifically in terms of mentor and student - the Eldar don't "guide" so much as "use", consider humans tools rather than students, and the humans absolutely do not see the Xenos filth as "mentors". Nor was Guilliman a mentor figure. He was a brother, and it was jealousy/sibling rivalry.

Not quite in the case of Guilliman-Papa Smurf was specifically assigned to be Alpharius' teacher until Alpharius was judged ready to take command of the Alpha Legion. Alpharius had different ideas from Smurf, and they broke entirely.

Large Blunt Object: I haven't read Legion yet, so my Alpha Legion-fu is limited to Index Astartes. If the example is just going to be Guilliman and Alpharius, it should probably go under Parental Issues, which is where all the Primarchy/Heresy stuff fits neatly together.

Rape The Dog (Everyone at some point or another-the Eldar and Tau at least try to put a good spin on it.)

No longer exists.

Point.

The Worf Barrage (Distressingly common when facing Tyranids/Necrons/Space Marines.)

Nonsense.

Have you read bits of fluff recounting attempts to fight Necrons or Tyranids? There's an entry in the Battlefleet Gothic handbook on the Tyranid fleet, IIRC, that describes exactly a Worf Barrage against the Tyranid fleet, with standard results for this trope, to name one good example.

Large Blunt Object: So, "Distressingly common"? Maybe fits when first facing a horrible new threat. Maybe. Needs a better and much more specific explanation... The Damocles Crusade might count as an example, too. And that bit in Codex: Necrons, noting how the Gauss cannon penetrates the Land Raider. I'm not going to put it back in until we can agree on terms, though.

Fading Echo: Also common in accounts of minor races facing Space Marines-demonstrating a Worf Barrage seems to be a common way to introduce a new and [presumably] powerful army/faction to a story or the setting as a whole.

Close Reasoning.

I don't like removing tropes from this page. I'm happy that it's one of the longest pages here - I've probably added about half of them myself! But these do not fit, and need to be pulled.

Fading Echo: Added rebuttals to the ones deserving it.

Large Blunt Object: Added defence. Seriously, I know where you're coming from, I love adding hundreds of tropes to this page - but most of these feel wrong to me. Also... please add a full stop when you're adding new tropes, it's a pain putting them in afterwards...

Fading Echo: Confession: I don't know what a full stop is-putting in the period at the end? I've been making myself do that, since I noticed folks adding them in the page history. Also, added further rebuttals/discussion to the examples that I felt merited it.

Large Blunt Object: Full stop = British English for period. So: return (with better descriptions where needed) Aristocrat, Equal Opportunity, Masquerade, Monotone, Significance Sense, Rage Against The Mentor (the specific Dorn-Alpharius one) Worf Barrage... leave the rest out?

Fading Echo: Sounds good. I'll try to exercise better judgement when adding tropes in the future.

J Chance: Something I'm not sure of, nor how to include it in an entertaining way, but "Gue'la" may be some combination of Bilingual Bonus and Incredibly Lame Pun, on Cantonese "Gweilo" for a European.

Servitor_2152: Rentsy says there's no chainsaw bayonets in 40k, but I distinctly remember seeing them on a couple of old 2nd edition models, and I know for a fact that chainsaw bayonets are part of the armory in Inquisitor. I realize there's No Such Thing As Notability, but I'd prefer to have an example on hand before I revert Rentsy's edit. Does anyone know of any recent 40k models or artwork featuring the ever-ridiculous chainsaw bayonet?

boromeer3: Of course! Terminators are allowed a "Chainfist" upgrade to their regular old powerfist. I'd consider it a bayonet even if it's not attached to a gun per se. I can second your point on second-edition models; I've seen them with my own eyes. Also, Titans will have close-combat weapons attached to their existing weaponry occasionally. Even better are the really high-ranking Space Marines; Grey Knights and the Emperor's bodyguards will use blades with guns attached. Also, the Dawn of War series has an Imperial Officer of some sort who uses a pair of lightning claws(BETTER than chainsaws) with a gun attached.

Peteman: I think the Order vs. Chaos bit would be better represented by Order Vs Chaos Vs Nihilism. The order and chaos factions are understandably divisible, but the Tyranid and Necron factions are defined by their desire to kill everything that isn't them. I wouldn't call them order or chaos.

Asmodemus: Of course the Necrons and Tyranids are Order, once everything in the galaxy is consumed and united under the Tyranid hivemind, or every soul is severed from the living with the mindless bodies herded for the C'tan, everything will be in perfect order.

Wizard Joni: Howsabout' we make a page for Dark Heresy?

Some Sort Of Troper: Letting everyone know we have a new namespace Analysis with a page for Warhammer 40000. I feel the most wonked page deserves the best analysis but the namespace is a bit of a hidden gem at the moment.

Ouroboros: Anyone want to go ahead and make a character page for this? I figure though, instead of characters split it up into the factions, which are further split up into sub-faction. Like say you've got Space Marines, which contains tropes applicable to all Marines, then you've got it split up into each Chapter beneath that, pointing out the specifics. You do the same with the Craftworlds and Ork tribes, and so on and so forth. Sound like a good idea?

Chuckles: Seconded. I'd do it myself if I had any idea how...

Servitor_2152: I went through and consolidated a bunch of examples in order to cut down on the endless strings of bullet points that were appearing (with one notable exception: I added bullets to the Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot example, because it was nigh-impossible to read otherwise). If you feel I cut out something important, please feel free to put it back, but let's try to avoid this page becoming any more unnecessarily long or cluttered than it already is.

Peteman: I'm curious, I keep hearing about the planet destroyed in a tax rounding error, but when and where did this happen?

Evilest_Tim: I believe it was just mentioned in passing in the fluff, probably something to do with Necromunda. Just a list of 'blah blah blah and bureaucracy so big entire planets are destroyed by rounding errors.'

FAO Tacitus: The "character page" is fantastic, glorious work.

Servitor_2152: Putting this here, because it's practically begging to become Conversation In The Main Page. Also, if you don't think there can be drama in the 40k universe, go read some of the better novels and then we'll talk.

This Troper thinks that the Warhammer 40k universe is rather a parody of a World Half Empty, but not a parody by means of irony like Crapsack Worlds, but rather by means of over-identification. While Crapsack Worlds are less serious than Worlds Half Empty, the Warhammer 40k universe is more serious. That is to say, it's so serious that it can't be taken seriously. While normally, a World Half Empty offers uns some kind of drama, drama is entirely impossible in the Warhammer 40k universe because you can't identify with any possible protagonist as the life or death of an individual doesn't matter at all. Even in 1984, which This Troper would consider an archetypical example of a World Half Empty, you can identify with Winston (or, as philosopher Richard Rorty argues, even with O'brien). Their existence is presented as hopeless, but not as entirely meaningless. The Warhammer universe is different. Even it's Gods are completely meaningless, nihilistic entities. Think of Tzeentch, who plays Thirty Xanatos Pileup with himself just for the lulz, involving the calculation of violent, brutal deaths of billions of feeling beings. However, they probably would have died of violent, brutal causes nonetheless. You just can't take this serious. But not because it's humorous or ironic or stuff, but precisely because it's too serious to be taken seriously. It's parody by means of over-identification.
- Oh dear, I've gone cross-eyed.

Kaelis Ra : should we make a page for the Dark Apostle series, or is it too minor?

Gentlemens Dame 883: More the merrier says I.

We should import the High Octane Nightmare Fuel to its own section here.

Asmodemus:Where is the new quote from? The humanity is one giant cult one.

Viewer: From the /tg/ archive - there was a thread with someone asking about 40k, and one of the first conclusions they reached was this.

Foryn: I always liked the phrase "Catholic Space Nazis" for my three word explanation of what 40k is all about, but w/e.

Archived Discussion TabletopGame / Warhammer40000