Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

is there any way that we could make an index or list of works in the 40k universe? I'd like to have a place to add links to specific works (which are, of course, many, hence the length of the page...), and obviously the trope examples section isn't it. - thespaceinvader

Goldfritha: Good idea.

Fading Echo: May I ask what the heck is with the Necron hate here? Yeah, they were a little over-the-top when they were introduced, but what faction isn't over the top? Yes, they were initially presented as an unstoppable force of doom-so were Chaos, the Tyranids, etc when they were first introduced. They all still are, if you think about it. *Every* race was Mary Sue-ish when first introduced. I really don't see why folks zero in on the Necrons as remotely special in that regard.

Roland: The main problem with the Necrons was that they weren't interesting. Chaos is the classical foe of the Warhammer 40k universe, and are ultimately seen as the setting's primary source of conflict. It is Chaos that set the downfall of the Imperium into motion. It's Chaos that has always been the looming danger on the horizon. Chaos has a variety of warped personalities and a lot of background detail, as do the Orks and the Eldar. (The Tyranids are always portrayed as more a natural disaster than a foe per se.)

By contrast, the Necrons are just a mindless horde of omnicidal robots, who, from their very first appearance, usurped Chaos' role as the progenitor of everything wrong in the 40k 'verse. But where Chaos is a horde of demented individuals, the Necrons are simply a mass of faceless mooks- and they're always touted as utterly unbeatable, utterly ancient, and utterly evil, almost as if their writers were trying to one-up Chaos, the real Big Bad of the 40k 'verse! The players were expected to swallow a lot more with the Necrons, because the claims of the Necrons to supremacy were far more extravagant than those given any other faction. But they simply aren't a very interesting army, since they lack individuals, internal dynamics, or even a cool theme- they're just sinister skeletal robots! There's only been a couple times the Necrons were presented as genuinely scary, and they're always in the Ciaphas Cain books.

Fading Echo: You're like most people regarding the Necrons, then-you only looked at the surface. The Necrons were *never* the progenitors of everything wrong-true, they were perhaps the original cause, but no more than that. It's true that the Necrons and C'Tan are utterly malevolent as far as the Imperium knows, but before Flanderization from the fanbase, there were hints that not all was what it appeared with the Necrons. *That* was the Necron theme, not the "omnicidal robot skeleton" thing-it's quite clearly stated in the original Necron codex that they have no intention of killing everything. That would be counterproductive to their actual goals. The signature theme of the Necrons isn't even that they're scary-it's that they're an intelligent race beyond human understanding-they're so ancient that applying any standards of time is meaningless, their attacks have no discernible rhyme or reason to them, yet they must have some unknowable purpose. Theirs is the Lovecraftian style of Cosmic Horror, not Chaos' more biblical apocalypse sort.

Yes, the Necron Codex presented them as unstoppable. Every Codex portrays their own race that way. You don't read about the Orks getting slaughtered in droves in their Codex, you don't read about Eldar plans that were turned on their head and annihilated in the Eldar Codex. Yes, there are no individuals or internal dynamics before 5E started thrashing them, for a simple reason: no one knows anything about the Necron hierarchy. For all we know, Necrons have politics just as rife and complex as the Imperium, but we wouldn't know about it because anyone who has learned about it hasn't survived to report back. Xenology clearly indicates that the Necrons have personality aplenty, when they choose to show it. But they seldom do, and indeed, why would they? The Necrons have no need to talk with the other races in general, and seem to prefer avoiding battle except when attacking.

Kaelis Ra: They are not just robots. They have a background (pre-necronization) that rivals the Horus heresy in terms of sheer heartbreaking, and their ultimate betrayal is, in my opinion, one of the saddest moments of the entire fluff. Furthermore, the Deciever and Nightbringer add quite a bit of flavor to it, with them being gods and all (the only material ones). Plus, they shoot lightning. Green. Lightning.
Large Blunt Object: Moved miles of old discussion to Warhammer 40000 Discussion Archive.

Also, a few statistics about this page: as of September 11 2008, it is both the longest Works page on the entire wiki (at over 250kb) and the fifteenth longest altogether, the second most linked-to Works page (after Tanz der Vampire) and 22nd most linked-to page overall, and 10th most non-Kilowick Trope Overdosed. We done good, people.

Shay Guy: Seeing as many tropers are American, you may wanna specify for future notice that you mean September 11, not November 9.

Large Blunt Object: ...hmm, I did pick a bit of an unfortunate day to do my counting. >_>
Large Blunt Object: Getting really tired of crappy shoehorned tropes. This page is already sublimely overdosed, do not need unpunctuated, questionable or outright wrong tropes.


I don't like removing tropes from this page. I'm happy that it's one of the longest pages here - I've probably added about half of them myself! But these do not fit, and need to be pulled.

Fading Echo: Added rebuttals to the ones deserving it.

Large Blunt Object: Added defence. Seriously, I know where you're coming from, I love adding hundreds of tropes to this page - but most of these feel wrong to me. Also... please add a full stop when you're adding new tropes, it's a pain putting them in afterwards...

Fading Echo: Confession: I don't know what a full stop is-putting in the period at the end? I've been making myself do that, since I noticed folks adding them in the page history. Also, added further rebuttals/discussion to the examples that I felt merited it.

Large Blunt Object: Full stop = British English for period. So: return (with better descriptions where needed) Aristocrat, Equal Opportunity, Masquerade, Monotone, Significance Sense, Rage Against The Mentor (the specific Dorn-Alpharius one) Worf Barrage... leave the rest out?

Fading Echo: Sounds good. I'll try to exercise better judgement when adding tropes in the future.

J Chance: Something I'm not sure of, nor how to include it in an entertaining way, but "Gue'la" may be some combination of Bilingual Bonus and Incredibly Lame Pun, on Cantonese "Gweilo" for a European.

Servitor_2152: Rentsy says there's no chainsaw bayonets in 40k, but I distinctly remember seeing them on a couple of old 2nd edition models, and I know for a fact that chainsaw bayonets are part of the armory in Inquisitor. I realize there's No Such Thing As Notability, but I'd prefer to have an example on hand before I revert Rentsy's edit. Does anyone know of any recent 40k models or artwork featuring the ever-ridiculous chainsaw bayonet?

boromeer3: Of course! Terminators are allowed a "Chainfist" upgrade to their regular old powerfist. I'd consider it a bayonet even if it's not attached to a gun per se. I can second your point on second-edition models; I've seen them with my own eyes. Also, Titans will have close-combat weapons attached to their existing weaponry occasionally. Even better are the really high-ranking Space Marines; Grey Knights and the Emperor's bodyguards will use blades with guns attached. Also, the Dawn of War series has an Imperial Officer of some sort who uses a pair of lightning claws(BETTER than chainsaws) with a gun attached.

Peteman: I think the Order vs. Chaos bit would be better represented by Order Vs Chaos Vs Nihilism. The order and chaos factions are understandably divisible, but the Tyranid and Necron factions are defined by their desire to kill everything that isn't them. I wouldn't call them order or chaos.

Asmodemus: Of course the Necrons and Tyranids are Order, once everything in the galaxy is consumed and united under the Tyranid hivemind, or every soul is severed from the living with the mindless bodies herded for the C'tan, everything will be in perfect order.

Wizard Joni: Howsabout' we make a page for Dark Heresy?

Some Sort Of Troper: Letting everyone know we have a new namespace Analysis with a page for Warhammer 40000. I feel the most wonked page deserves the best analysis but the namespace is a bit of a hidden gem at the moment.
Ouroboros: Anyone want to go ahead and make a character page for this? I figure though, instead of characters split it up into the factions, which are further split up into sub-faction. Like say you've got Space Marines, which contains tropes applicable to all Marines, then you've got it split up into each Chapter beneath that, pointing out the specifics. You do the same with the Craftworlds and Ork tribes, and so on and so forth. Sound like a good idea?

Chuckles: Seconded. I'd do it myself if I had any idea how...
Servitor_2152: I went through and consolidated a bunch of examples in order to cut down on the endless strings of bullet points that were appearing (with one notable exception: I added bullets to the Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot example, because it was nigh-impossible to read otherwise). If you feel I cut out something important, please feel free to put it back, but let's try to avoid this page becoming any more unnecessarily long or cluttered than it already is.

Peteman: I'm curious, I keep hearing about the planet destroyed in a tax rounding error, but when and where did this happen?

Evilest_Tim: I believe it was just mentioned in passing in the fluff, probably something to do with Necromunda. Just a list of 'blah blah blah and bureaucracy so big entire planets are destroyed by rounding errors.'
FAO Tacitus: The "character page" is fantastic, glorious work.
Servitor_2152: Putting this here, because it's practically begging to become Conversation in the Main Page. Also, if you don't think there can be drama in the 40k universe, go read some of the better novels and then we'll talk.
  • This Troper thinks that the Warhammer 40k universe is rather a parody of a World Half Empty, but not a parody by means of irony like Crapsack Worlds, but rather by means of over-identification. While Crapsack Worlds are less serious than Worlds Half Empty, the Warhammer 40k universe is more serious. That is to say, it's so serious that it can't be taken seriously. While normally, a World Half Empty offers uns some kind of drama, drama is entirely impossible in the Warhammer 40k universe because you can't identify with any possible protagonist as the life or death of an individual doesn't matter at all. Even in 1984, which This Troper would consider an archetypical example of a World Half Empty, you can identify with Winston (or, as philosopher Richard Rorty argues, even with O'brien). Their existence is presented as hopeless, but not as entirely meaningless. The Warhammer universe is different. Even it's Gods are completely meaningless, nihilistic entities. Think of Tzeentch, who plays Thirty Xanatos Pileup with himself just for the lulz, involving the calculation of violent, brutal deaths of billions of feeling beings. However, they probably would have died of violent, brutal causes nonetheless. You just can't take this serious. But not because it's humorous or ironic or stuff, but precisely because it's too serious to be taken seriously. It's parody by means of over-identification.
    • Oh dear, I've gone cross-eyed.

Kaelis Ra : should we make a page for the Dark Apostle series, or is it too minor?

Gentlemens Dame 883: More the merrier says I.

Asmodemus:Where is the new quote from? The humanity is one giant cult one.

Viewer: From the /tg/ archive - there was a thread with someone asking about 40k, and one of the first conclusions they reached was this.

Foryn: I always liked the phrase "Catholic Space Nazis" for my three word explanation of what 40k is all about, but w/e.