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From YKTTW


Deletion Discussion

Charred Knight: Since someone wants to cutlist it then I will defend it. Wall Banger is a necessary balance just because we don't want to start seeing page after page of nothing more than tropes where people basically give the creator a blowjob. This is no different than Wham Episode except that with Wham you compliment them. If you want to delete this page, than you must delete the entire Crowning Moment series or it wouldn't be balanced. Hell I like this page a hell of a lot more than CMOA just because CMOA can get down right annoying like the Code Geass page.

Sure you may not like it when someone insults your favorite series, but honestly I rarely ever disagree with the examples. Civil War was badly written, and planned, The Black Knights rebellion in Code Geass was handled horribly, and the Miscarriage arc was the worst web comic arc I have ever read.

I have yet to see Wall Banger get out of hand like Discontinuity has, and so the only complaint isn't that Wall Banger is badly done, but that it exist, and I have yet to see one reason why Wall Banger shouldn't exist other than its for complaining, the problem is that its a good type of complaining, its criticizing a poorly thought out plot, and a reason is always given.

The only reason no one complains about CMOA is because its basically giving the creators B Js, and so no one's feelings are hurt, even though their is no rules for CMOA, and their is no guidelines, its just people listing badass scenes. I don't want to see hundreds of pages of nothing but how awesome some creator is without being able to call them out. I have learned far more from Wall Bangers than I most other pages here.

The problem with complaining is only when it effects pages it shouldn't So Bad, It's Horrible? Fine, Luke, I am Your Father? Not Fine, just list the example and move on. I will also point out that Tanto gives up way to easily, instead of helping us better manage the website, He just writes off whole pages, and claims they suck instead of trying to make them better.

If anyone can give me a reason why CMOA should exist, and Wall Banger shouldn't I would love to hear about it.

Ethereal Mutation: I'm in favor of purging this series of pages. This page has the problem of being just flat out too vague to exist as a "trope". It doesn't give any criteria besides "it sucks" for "examples", it encourages complaining, and it will just continue to grow like the cancer it is. At least the So Bad, It's Horrible series has falsifiability to kill bad examples off.

Charred Knight: and how is that different from CMOA encouragine praising. The complaining here, is a hell of a lot better than the excessive praising in most CMOA which usually just makes me not want to read the pages.

Ethereal Mutation: In response to Charred Knight (damn lack of locking), I will agree that the Crowning series is worse because next to nobody is willing to contest them. It should be purged as well, but as you alluded to, it would be a really unpopular move and so, nobody seems willing to try it.

Ninjacrat: CMOA attracts positive vibes and people who are excited about what they're watching. Wall Banger attracts whiny, pissy, bloody-minded, demi-autistic little shits from the darkest bowels of the internet.

Good vibes good. Bad vibes bad. Shit, it's hard to even explain it without sounding like you're stating the obvious. Nobody gives a shit about 'balance' excpet Charred Knight, and I have my doubts about him too.

Charred Knight: Than how can we delete this one? To me its just a matter of balance. I don't see why the hell we would allow excessive praising but lock out criticism, as long as this doesn't turn into another Discontinuity than I am fine. The problem with Discontinuity wasn't the complaining it was the fact that no reason was ever given for the complaints. It was just "X SUCKS", with Wallbanger I have yet to see this. Most of the examples are well thought out, and the examples that are not are deleted.

Charred Knight: As for Ninjacrat

This is good vibes?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/CrowningMoment/CodeGeass http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/CrowningMoment/GGundam http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/CrowningMoment/SuperSmashBros

One of them is Mario missing a punch?

CMOA is nothing more than a love affair between the person writing the examples and the creator.

Wall Banger is far less annoying than the CMOA page for Code Geass. The problem with people who are excited is that they tend to write stupid things when they are excited. Look at Gurren Lagann before it was cleaned up.

Ninjacrat: You have some fixation that Geass page, don't you? :) ...I really can't think of anything to say. If you think that page is not good, move to delete it and see if other people agree. But do it at Code Geass Discussion, not here.

Charred Knight: I just chose the three worst pages, it just so happens that after Gurren Lagann's fanbase stopped excessivly praising the thing Code Geass fans started to excessivly praise that. Also if you look at the history of G Gundam's page you might find something interesting.

Ninjacrat: If you feel there is a problem with excessive praise, take it up on those pages. And not here.

Charred Knight: I am simply far too laid back to try to delete a page that other people like.

Lord TNK: I'll repeat the same defense I give for all License To Whine pages. So what if it's complaining? The point is that they do it on these pages, and leave the rest of the site alone.

Heck, this is from that page: "it needs to be confined to places that are meant for it". Isn't Wall Banger meant to help confine these?

Ninjacrat: That's the exact same argument I gave for the creation of Troper Tales, so I guess I can't object to that. But I do think having three License To Whine namespaces is sending certain people the wrong idea. No matter what their intended purposes were, Wall Banger, Dis Continuity and So Bad, It's Horrible have become copies of one another; two of then need to be deleted or merged.

Lord TNK: Copies? What the hell? If they were distinct, okay, but treating them as one?

Then again, if it still keeps the whining contained... now I'm picturing it turning into some gross, black mass of complaining. I'm tempted to say just replace this with Dethroning Moment of Suck, but since I put that up, it would seem presumptuous as hell. What other solutions are there other than deleting? Since this is so large, that should be saved as a last resort.

Charred Knight: I am all for the deletion of Discontinuity, it can best be described as "Wall Banger with no explanations". It just people listing scenes with no real solution. As for So Bad, It's Horrible, that's just listing series that where horrible and reasons. This is usually listing series that are usually good if some inept moments. I have complained about Code Geass as much as any man has but I still think it was competenly made just not the masterpiece nearly everyone else is calling it. That's a hell of a lot more different than say those series in So Bad, It's Horrible which are just plain series that suck so badly their not even funny.

Lord TNK: Anything to try before deleting one of these?

Ethereal Mutation: Dis Continuity in its current form definitely has to go. It's even more vague than wallbanger and its format encourages people to not explain the examples. As for So Bad, It's Horrible, I've been enforcing falsifiability on it whenever I can. The page was always supposed to be "something with no redemption, intentional or otherwise, and nobody that enjoys it", so if somebody is willing to defend a work as having any merit without an external motivation, it's safe to assume that there do exist enough people to discredit the example. Anyway, as for wallbanger, it should probably just be merged into Dethroning Moment of Suck.

Antwan: Agreed. Dethroning Moment of Suck is getting pretty bad anyway. The page is getting really stretched out and that's just over Family Guy! Wall Banger should be the place for any work, whether bad or good, having something that caused a lot of backlash. Of course, like So Bad, It's Horrible and any other subjective trope, it just needs a little more moderation from experienced tropers and it'll get better. We can make this work guys, I know it.
Isn't this called a Jump the Shark? I mean, I like Wall Banger, but I think the former is used a lot more often — The Odosia

Jumping the Shark would be the Wall Banger that derails a series. I think the wall-banger term would also refer to a failure less catastrophic, suppose a good series has an episode that's just so awful that fans everywhere choose to pretend it never happened?

Looney Toons: An episode so bad that the fans pretend it doesn't exist is an example of Dis Continuity.

A single Wall Banger can be followed up by quality episodes, and I think if you're sympathetic you can chalk it up to the writers just having an off day. Jumping the Shark IMHO refers to an *ongoing* trend that ruins a series. — osh

Jumping the Shark does not require a Wallbanger; it's not unlikely that two co-workers attracted to each other would eventually sleep together, but if it ever happens in a TV series it's a virtually guaranteed shark jump. Some people consider long-running series like MASH or Gunsmoke to have jumped the shark because they eventually run out of new ideas, even though the episodes don't necessarily get worse. — Corvus

Seth: Also by this description stand alone pieces count, its only a shark jump if better material preceded it. A stand alone work like a single novel or film can be a wall banger, but not a shark jump.

Ununnilium: Pulling out:

  • The Simpsons episode "The Principal and the Pauper" — even the characters recognized how bad this was, and were sworn to never mention its events again, under penalty of torture. (Alternatively, this may be interpreted as an extreme Snap Back.)

...because it's obviously a parody of Snap Back.

Seven Seals: That part, yes. But you'll find that the episode itself is still considered a Wall Banger by many ("worst episode ever" and all that). The bit at the end where the characters go "gee, wasn't all that stupid, let's never talk about it again" doesn't change the fact that, well, all that was stupid.

Ununnilium: Personally, I don't see what was so stupid about it. `.` Maybe the characterization was off, and some people really hated that, sure. But I don't think that it diverges so sharply from the reality or tone of the series that it belongs here.

Seven Seals: Well, this poll is outdated by now, but it's still insightful: http://www.geocities.com/televisioncity/studio/7587/polls/episode2.html I thoroughly dislike the episode myself, and for exactly the reason you mention; the tone of that episode is completely unlike anything else in The Simpsons. A story about Skinner being a long-lost Vietnam vet whose mother pretends to recognize him as her son? I see how not all Simpsons episodes are just for laughs, but this was just painful. Of course, whether it's a Wall Banger is, as always with these things, quite subjective. I thought the episode completely missed the mark, but it's nowhere near the level of something like Threshold.

Seth: I never had a reason for it, because i never over-analyzed stuff back then. But i always put that episode in my Dis Continuity pile and turned it off when i saw it on the TV. This might be a subjective list, but a hell of a lot of tropers seem to consider that one a wall banger.

Duckluck: Yeah, I wouldn't have thought to include that episode here, but I wouldn't really object to its placement. It was hardly the series' finest hour (although it's still way better than most of the stuff they've come out with in the last couple seasons).

On a related note, does anyone else think that the Heroes season finale should go here? It was one of the worst resolutions for an ongoing arc I have ever seen. Nathan's blatantly unnecessary heroic sacrifice was particularly stupid.

Wiki: I'd come back with some backup. I mean what was he supposed to do, just stand there and let his brother nuke New York? Alliteration. Not saying it was perfect or nothin, but its nice to have a primetime Myth Arc show that doesn't end on some cheap cliff hanger. Looking straight at you Lost. It managed to end an arc and pave the way for the next, which is pretty much what you're supposed to do. Ya'know, a finale that's actually conclusive.

Duckluck: Nathan's sacrifice was unnecessary, because he could have just let Claire shoot Peter and it would have been over with. Besides, Peter can fly, so there was no good reason for Nathan to have to carry him. Also, you can say that it wrapped up the arc, but it didn't really resolve that much. Sylar is (somehow) still alive. Peter's probably not dead (we know this because in the future episode he had survived the exact same blast) and could go boom some other time, there's a cheap cliffhanger over whether or not Parkman is going to pull through, and so on. Also I felt cheated because the climactic battle they'd been leading up to all season lasted about five minutes and really wasn't all that exciting.

Wiki: Like I said, anything but perfect. I'm actually not big on internet debate thingies, I'm just saying make sure you have some honest credibility (if its as bad as you say, it shouldn't be a problem). With something like Wall Banger, it has to be majority rule. Last thing ya wanna do is look like lone, Fan Dumb Heroes fan angsting off their personal dissapointment on some Wiki, ya know?

Duckluck: Right, that's why I posted it here, first.

Wiki: For something as heavy as Wall Banger, I'd go for a majority of the fandom itself (polls on popular forums you may have come across and junk), rather than basing it off half a dozen or so expressingly snarky people on a Wiki that allots it.

Roy: Have you guys seen the new season episodes? Nathen is alive!

Lale: About Avatar, not only don't any of the possibilities in the opening paragraph apply, but most of the "majority of polls on popular forums" I've seen know Zuko joining the Gaang is a Fan Fic only scenario and that it would have been a very cliche ending. Is unpopularity with some fans all it takes to be called a Wall Banger? Even Louis May Alcott wrote that she got letters requesting she rewrite a sad ending.

Wiki: A lot of what I put down was just for fun and expected to be changed. Been waiting to that "...the other half is smart" bit for awhile now. :) Anywho, the other half of what I said was based on the early results, in which just about everyone went pyscho. Fortunately, since then, everything's cooled down and to an end, the effects of the finale made several come to realize just how shortsighted that whole "Zuko joins the Aang Gang" thing is. And yet. Also, I actually based it on resources outside of online polls and junk (they really, really only go so far). Thanks to a certain widespread trope, its pretty much the first thing that comes to viewers when they encounter his character. Either way, I got to put that smart bit down, so I'm content.

Seth: Either way it's not a Wal Banger, that episode was considered by most as really good - the way the entry was written made me think that you meant the fan fiction were wall bangers. Pulled it:

  • The effects of the season two finale of Avatar: The Last Airbender left quite a divided impression on the fandom. One half was completely appalled by the downcast results, especially, to no surprise, with Zuko's betrayal of his uncle Iroh in favor of joining up with his sister, after being led into a false sense of security with the ever-so-shakey "Zuko joins Aang and the Gang" concept. Co-creators Mike DiMartino and Bryan Konietzko have a large collection of letters asking for the finale to be rewritten posted on their wall. By contrast, another half of the fandom applauded the finale for this genuinely unpredictable twist.

And it's a shame, people were doing so well keeping the erroneous avatar examples at bay.

Lale: This wasn't an erroneous example made by that same anonymous Otaku, though. BTW, if it's any consolation, for some reason, new ones aren't coming up in the Search results.

Ununnilium: Much later, pulling this out for the same reasons:
  • Avatar: The Last Airbender : This was the reaction of many fans after viewing the two-part season 2 finale. Zuko spent nearly the entire season seeking redemption and learning about his true place in life, culminating in him finally accepting his new place in life. But after a series of events, once the opportunity to return to The Dark Side presents itself, he seizes it without a second thought. This negated every bit of development he had in he season, making his storylines retroactively pointless.

Viewtiful Jeff: The Yu-Gi-Oh! GX examples seem pretty lame, if you ask me. It's like one person watched Season 3 and decided that they didn't like it so they decided to put it up. The first two seasons could surely constitute Wall Bangers, but I think it's a pretty long shot to say Season 3 is.

Lale: Seconded. It's creepy, and getting creepier — but that's not a bad thing.

Twin Bird: I herebi christen this Edit War discussion by pulling the phrase "full implementation of No Bisexuals." See the pissing contest in that page's discussion for why.

Also, is it really fair to put the Super-Greg storyline above the Melna/Stonewater storyline? If I remember, most of the critics of the former didn't like the strip in general, whereas the latter pissed off the fans.

Sci Vo: Melna/Stonewater is full-blown Internet Backdraft material. I don't see where people are getting the idea that Super-Greg is more of a wall-banger than that. In fact, I have a theory that Super-Greg is Difficult Art, where Mookie was deliberately causing Mood Whiplash with every other strip by rapidly rotating between goofy, maudlin, and sinister. I just haven't felt like going back, re-reading it, and tracking the mood changes yet.

Ununnilium: Yeah; modifying that to just be the Melna/Stonewater storyline. Original:
  • The Super-Greg arc in Dominic Deegan (a fantasy series where, through a series of increasingly unlikely coincidences, one of the characters turns into a spandex-clad flying superhero). Some people would argue that it was the Rape Is Love scene but at least that one made sense...
    • Or could have, anyway. Unfortunately, rape-based Stockholm Syndrome requires more than a single rape followed by the woman escaping and never seeing the rapist again for years. Even then, if it were at least portrayed as Stockholm Syndrome rather than true love with the rapist being so morally right that the only character to raise objections was outed by the next strip as being disguised evil just trying to harass the innocent rapist...who had raped a fourteen year old immediately after she saw her parents killed in front of her...

And Grace's Birthday Party? Really? The worst thing I can say about that storyline was that it was overstretched.

Medinoc: Pulled it out, but keeping it here if anybody still wants to discuss it:
  • Grace's Birthday Party in El Goonish Shive, which hailed the sudden cancellation of Cerebus Syndrome, and the emergence of a Kudzu Plot.
    • Medinoc: The "sudden" cancellation of Cerebus Syndrome was explicitely referenced immediately after the dramatic arc, and already in application as soon as the Red Alert arc. This is turning into an Edit War, so better move all this to the discussion.

Ununnilium: Similarly, I've never heard anyone complain about "The Storm Breaker"; the real Sluggy Freelance Wall Banger seems to be "Oceans Unmoving", which took so-popular-that-there's-a-backlash-against-him Ensemble Darkhorse Bun-Bun and moved him to an entirely new setting:
  1. where none of the other characters of the series were (making it All-Bun-Bun-And-New-People, All-The-Time), and
  2. which used an entirely different cosmology that required strip after strip of Expo Speak to catch people up on.
    Plus, it was overstretched, and came on the heels of the popular "That Which Redeems" story arc. And then he did it again a few months later with "Oceans Unmoving 2".

Later: Anyone object to me replacing it?

Even later: Okay, doing so:

  • The arc "The Storm Breaker" in Sluggy Freelance, which is on close examination nothing but several months of ripping off Army of Darkness and jamming You Can't Fight Fate down our throats. It has the hallmark of a webcomic Wall Banger - you can skip over it and you miss nothing.

And also pulling out:

  • That wasn't really a Rape Is Love sequence. It was more a lesser of two evils scenario - he had to rape her otherwise she would have been put to death. Read the comic. It makes sense.
    • Sure, it started that way, but it became a Wall Banger when Melna realized she was in love with Stonewater.

...because it's Inappropriately Placed Discussion.

Ununnilium: The Super-Greg entry's been put back in. Should it be re-pulled-out?

Heart Burn Kid: I don't really think so, honestly. Super-Greg was definitely a Wall Banger, though whether it was worse than the Stonewater thing is debatable. I'll just tweak it a bit to remove that part.

Ununnilium: Okee.

Also, what should I do when I completely and wholly disagree with an entry here? `-`

Ununnilium: This is not a Wall Banger:

  • As has been pointed out by the Internet Oracle (among others), in The Lord of the Rings, Gandalf could have avoided the entire three books by simply summoning his friend the King of the Eagles at the beginning and have the King fly him and Frodo to Mount Doom to throw the ring in.

Nobody ever disliked LotR because Gandalf didn't just have the Eagle King fly the ring over. Yeah, it's kinda dumb in retrospect (though many people have come up with in-universe reasons not to do it), but who thought about it while reading the books? It's Fridge Logic at most.

Seven Seals: Agreed on not calling it a Wall Banger, but come on — Tolkien ruined it for himself by having the Eagles swoop in and save Sam and Frodo on Mount Doom. Aside from being a Deus ex Machina, it sort of immediately raises the question of why you wouldn't fly to Mordor instead of making a pair of hobbits trek there (mostly) on foot. The story's just about over then anyway, but it's not quite Fridge Logic.

Sukeban: Well, there were Ringwraiths who could fly on fell beasts, and Sauron was alive and well in Barad-dŻr, and Saruman could control weather from far, far apart and raise quite a large number of crebain, and... er. It makes kind of sense that the Eagles wouldn't fly inside of Mordor until after Sauron was defeated.

About the Scrubs episodes that are mentioned on this page: Is it a Wall Banger if the episode was considered top-notch quality?

About Ender's Game: the students were being trained/selected for a war in space, fought more or less exclusively with ships. In such a situation, you're always in the open...at best, you have a planet momentarily between you and the enemy...and formations help to keep things organized. It didn't at all resemble modern infantry warfare, but they weren't intended to ever engage in that kind of fighting.

Bob!: The third thought I had when I read the Enderís Game example was that it was bullshit, because a Wall Banger is supposed be of low quality. It can't just be an aspect of the plot you disagree with.

The second thought was that that reader completely missed the point of the exercises, being primarily about evaluating and shaping the psychology of the future generals.

My first thought was: "BURN THE HERETIC INSULTING THE BEST SCIENCE FICTION BOOK EVER WRITTEN!".

Anyone mind if I remove it? Or can whoever put it there explain what he or she meant with it?

Later: I'm cutting it because it is a justified use of Hollywood Tactics since the students at the Battle School are just kids.

Saved here for posterity:

  • Enderís Game includes an infantry combat game where our hero shows up all the upperclassmen. Which wouldn't be bad except these highly-trained generals-to-be are putting their people in rows, in the open. In real life this went out of fashion about the same time the breech-loading rifle became the infantry weapon of choice.

Ununnilium: Not sure how the Bee Movie thing has anything to do with this trope. `.`

Bob!: Neither do I.

Ununnilium: Pulling it:
  • Bee Movie lampshades this when the protagonist, a bee named Barry B. Benson, falls in love with a human named Vanessa. He daydreams them picnicing together and flying together, she with the use of an ultralight. The daydream ends in an abrupt shock for Barry when she tries to do an aerobatic move only a real bee could pull off, and dying in a fiery crash.

Ununnilium: Pulling out:
  • It wasn't rape is love. They don't end up together. However, the circumstances that led to it may seem like over the top justification.

It's Rape Is Actually Being Nice, which is part of the Rape Is Love trope. So. ``v

Ununnilium: Taking this out, because the one part contradicts the other:
  • When Peter uses Isaac's power to paint a painting with French street names, Caitlin immediately says "the street names are in French, it must be Montreal!" despite the fact that somewhere in FRANCE would be a significantly more obvious assumption.
    • That just proves that those two are meant for each other.
    • Although among Peter's belongings was a mysterious plane ticket to Montreal, so...

Later: Whittled to nothingness by the caveats:
  • In the episode "Four Months Ago," we find out that D.L. Hawkins survived his gunshot wound from Linderman. Later, Niki stops taking anti-psychotic medication to suppress her split personality disorder for the flimsiest of reasons (something like "wanting to smile on [her] son's birthday.") Soon as that happens, she develops a new personality and goes wild and crazy in L.A., forcing D.L. to come to her rescue. When that happens, a thug shoots him from the front in point blank range, killing him, despite the fact that his phasing power could have easily prevented his death!
    • My Fridge Logic tells me it was a matter of reaction time... do we have an article for 'deer in the headlights-ball'?
    • To be fair, though, there were lots of people standing right behind him.
    • He as walking down a flight of stairs, as this troper remembers.
    • The flimsy excuse for stopping the anti-psychotic medication is more Truth in Television than Wall Banger, I'm afraid.
  • More annoying was the random thug resorting to the murder of a total stranger, in a public place, because he politely and calmly escorted another total stranger away from him. Apparently the dating scene is really cutthroat in Heroes.

Ununnilium: Self-defeating:

  • Pretty much every episode of House, in which the title character regularly does things that would get anyone else shunned, fired, arrested and/or burned at the stake.
    • Although this is covered by Rule of Cool. The show wouldn't be nearly as entertaining if House wasn't a total Jerkass.

Ununnilium: Is the "troper virtues" thing a reference I don't get, or just Conversation in the Main Page?

TTD - I've been wondering that too. Is this actually someone defending "Krull"? And does he honestly think he's got a leg to stand on after running to the defense of "Krull"?

Ununnilium: Pulling it out:
  • There are troper virtues other than snarkiness. Courtesy is one of them!

Ununnilium: Make this not Complaining About Shows You Don't Like:
  • And the newest train-wreck of a storyline. "I hate you. You're annoying, and we've been fighting for the past 10 days over serious issues the two of us share. But I have a really nice ring here, so will you marry me?" "'K." "Wow, that solved EVERY PROBLEM EVER."

Medinoc: Pulling out El Goonish Shive, REDUX. We discuss it HERE if necessary.

Franckly, "chasing away plenty of Selective Squick readers" ? Oh, come on! EGS is a Gender Bender Transformation Comic...

Ununnilium: Re-re-taking it out now.

Ununnilium:
  • In Wolverine (Vol. 2) #32, a silent Wolverine, imprisoned in a Nazi death camp, spends the entire issue slowly driving the Commandant insane by dying in increasingly horrific ways only to appear the next day fully recovered, glaring at him menacingly. At the climax of the story, the Commandant, while brutally beating Wolverine, accidentally kills himself when he knocks over a lamp and sets the room on fire. At the close of the story, a new Commandant is shown around his new assignment and catches sight of Wolverine, glaring at him. Now, it was nicely atmospheric, and there's some satisfaction in watching a high-ranking Nazi officials go crazy, but given who the main character is wouldnít it have been more effective if he, oh, I donít know, killed the Nazis, saved the innocent Jewish prisoners, and burned the concentration camp to the ground?! Although, this is precisely Wolvie's style... so maybe it's not such a wallbanger after all.

Oh, maybe it is a Wall Banger! Maybe it isn't! Make up your mind. >>

  • To be fair, Nuriko is only ever shown to love one male character (Hotohori) and that infatuation seems to hold true even after said subplot. Of course, after his true gender was first revealed, he did say that he was a woman at heart, so take it as you will.

Again, overly uncertain.

Later:
  • Lots of other over-the-top disaster movies, too. Like Core, for example, where they have to tunnel down the Earth's core to blow up an A-bomb down there to restart the Earth's core rotation and magnetic field... or something.
    • Dont forget the bit where the lightning bolts chase people down the streets of Rome, conveniently ignoringthe tall buildings on either side of the street. Good grief.

This explains the premise of the movie and talks about one annoying scene. It does not show why it's a Wall Banger.

Caswin: Cutting the Harry Potter example, in the vein of the aforementioned Lord of the Rings. One irksome scene does not a Wall Banger make.
  • Near the end of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, the death of Voldemort, the climactic point to which one of the most popular series in modern literature has built up, happens in two sentences in the middle of a long paragraph. This editor had to reread the section to work out what happened, as it had apparently skipped to the heroes celebrating.
I also think some of the Film section is suspect. Highlander 2 was an abomination, yes. Everything in the franchise after the first movie... not so much. I'm not saying they were good, but I don't think they deserve to be put under the same heading. I'd say that the same goes for many of the other movies on the list - many of them aren't stellar, but they have enough merit that they don't sink to the mind-wrenching depths of badness that this trope is devoted to.

Ununnilium: Agreed. People do too much Complaining About Shows They Don't Like.

Chuckg: Removed the entry on the 'Black Magician' trilogy. It was very inaccurate. The heroine never really realizes that the architecture of the city can be drained to empower mages... the villainess does.

Fast Eddie: Cut this:
Thankfully, the lovely Sai gives us a truly hilarious parody of it called "Parody into Dreams" at her website.
.. cuz I couldn't find the relevant parody. A direct link would be good.

In It's Your First Kiss, Charlie Brown, Charlie Brown is in a football team during an important game as the place kicker, but Lucy is assigned to hold the ball for the kicks. Sure enough, she pulls the famous and inevitable ball-pulling prank (twice), which eventually leads to them losing the game by one point. ... It didn't really end up mattering in the grander scheme, but many viewers wrote protest letters about this stupid plot hole, especially as the gag was nowhere near as commonly done as fans supposed.

I don't understand the last part about "the gag was nowhere near as commonly done as fans supposed." If it's supposed to mean that in the comic strip, Lucy didn't often pull the football away from Charlie Brown, then that's misguided; she did that about 40 times according to this site. But in the strip, normally it wasn't a game situation, but just Charlie Brown attempting to kick the ball for fun.

Ununnilium:
  • A more painful Star Trek example is Star Trek X: Wrath of Khan the Next Generation. It actually pains this Editor to think back on the accumulated Wall Bangers present therein.

First is already in Dis Continuity, second... seems to be some kind of joke?

  • The thing with Ed was that all the computers were infected by the virus, and randomly rebooting and causing other havok; even a computer whizkid like Cowboy Bebop at His Computer couldn't do a thing in those circumstances. Charging straight at the ships was pretty damn stupid though.

Conversation in the Main Page.

Shale: The second is a derisive Fan Nickname for Star Trek: Nemesis, which isn't exactly a favorite.

Ununnilium: Well, make that explicit and actually describe these Wall Bangers.

Ununnilium:
  • Did you somehow miss The Reveal? The Seantor was one of the invaders.

First, Conversation in the Main Page. Second, that point was in the original entry, which I edited down; I figured it didn't really matter, since it was a dumb comment either way. Still, I'll clarify that.

Caswin: Does that even belong here? Wall Banger status is supposed to be reserved for the truly awful, or at least in-story atrocities that drag down everything they touch. We're just talking about a bad line. (Not that "Secret Origins" was a masterpiece - even the creators have admitted it wasn't exactly their best work - but I don't think this reaches Wall Banger levels by any means.)

Ununnilium: I agree, honestly. The thing is, this is such a subjective trope...

That Other 1 Dude: I think the fact that the aliens were vulnerable to light yet the Senator could somehow disguise himself as a human for three years may count.

Narvi: He was wearing a human skin shield. What about it?

That Other 1 Dude: That raises the question of why the other didn't just wear suits instead of trying to blot out the sun. Though that probably fits better under Fridge Logic (it's actually on the page)

Narvi: Because nobody likes to wear spacesuits all the time?
Peteman: Can we stop this Sirius death edit war? It's annoying.

That Other 1 Dude: Can anyone think of a reason to keep that? Wasn't the whole point of the fifth book was being so Wangsty ended up causing Sirius death? And how could that possibly make the entire book a Wall Banger?

Mc Max:It's a Wall Banger because as I said, Harry just blows off the death of the nearest person to family that he had when he morned a minor character for most of the previous book! But you are right is saying that the entire was a wall banger,for me and legions of other fans Half Blood Prince Jumped the Shark.

That Other 1 Dude: Does anyone agree with him? So far it's him against me and apparently Ninjacrat.

Ninjcrat: I'd delete it just on the basis of the appalling grammar. The bitterness and the passing off of opinions as objective fact are just icing on a great big deletion-cake.

Mc Max: Isn't that what this site about? Especially a trope that is subjective like this one. I posted something that was inline with the definition given, something that happens in a story that you just can't except. And that hurts your enjoyment of the thing from now on.

Ninjacrat: It is very explicitly not what the wiki is about. Doubly not so for subjective tropes like this one.

Also, the aforementioned crimes against syntax.


Peteman: To the guy who commented about the Rock Concert potential Wall Banger vs the Super-Greg absolute Wallbanger, the Rock Concert was a silly idea, the Super-Greg storyline is chock full of Moral Dissonance and an incredibly poorly thought out Xanatos Roulette (which wasn't necessary to the extent that they did it: killing an insane Ice Mage hell-bent on killing everyone in town isn't murder (especially when it's not even intentional)! It's self-defence). I can understand the need to not want to allow a moral person to become an accidental killer, and a need to get his White Magic under control, but murderer is too a loaded word, and there were likely alternatives that didn't involve silly costumes and the near deaths of three supporting characters and a whole bunch of NP Cs.
Medinoc: I have a problem with the Stargate Atlantis example: it says "he stupidly moves the bomb instead of the people", but in the episode, it is explicitely stated that the guy on the operating table would not survive being moved...
Willy Four Eyes: Looks like we've reached critical mass once again. 20+ pages of Subjective Tropes like this really out to be broken up into smaller chunks. I'll get started on it later tonight, if there aren't any objections.

Ununnilium: I think we should just describe the trope and eliminate all examples. ``v On every Subjective Trope.

Caswin: It's tempting. I can't help noticing, looking over the pages, that many of these works are at worst "bad", low-quality, or even just awkward elements or irksome flaws that they wanted to get out of their system - whereas the status of "Wall Banger" implies that it's so terrible to the point of offensiveness, such that if it were a book in your hands, you would seriously consider throwing it against the wall in anger. Of course, the problem (well, one of them) with Subjective Tropes is, it's so hard to point out and remove something that genuinely doesn't fit...

Citizen: Isn't Wall Banger just a duplication of the entire It Just Bugs Me! index?

Ununnilium: Indeed.

HeartBurn Kid: It Just Bugs Me! is more about moments of Fridge Logic than about moments of head-thumping stupidity.

F Ast Eddie: No animated images, please. Please see Administrative Policy.


Premium Irritation: I think this needs a section for examples that fall under 'Other' - the miscellaneous stuff.


Peteman: Has anyone found a good image for the symbol of Wallbanger? One I found on the Gleemax forums I think is pretty good (though we'll need to cut out the animation [1] I think if we could, we'd have the star in the pic... or at least we can use it for inspiration for an original view.


Danel: This discussion page is really depressing - brave and heroic tropers fight a desperate battle against a wave of Complaining About Shows You Don't Like... but are ultimately unsuccessful, and the entire page becomes abandoned to people shouting whatever the hell comes into their heads, even as it overflows across page after page.

Tanto: Try not to let it get to you. Yeah, it's dumb, but there's really nothing that can be done about it at this point. Ironically, I've DisContinued this page (and those like it) for being examples of the very things they decry.

Caswin: I still don't mind the idea of the page itself, but I think it lost its meaning somewhere back down the line. Based on many (probably most) of the examples listed, as well as the majority of links to this page, "Wall Banger" has come to represent anything that could vaguely tempt someone to beat their head against the wall a few times, not the original, far more exclusive throwing of the "book" against a wall in anger.

Charred Knight: The problem is that it is subjective, for example Code Geass is considered to be a really really really good series by a huge amount of people with claims like "Best series in the past decade", but for me I spent a lot of time just looking in shock and anger at how badly written the last 7 episodes where. I mean they spend the entire series setting up the Black Knights betrayal for moral reasons, then proceed to have the entire group make an even worse guy as their new leader making the whole morality thing mute just because Schneizel came off like Big Bad material. Even that didn't work when his defeated in an incredibly stupid way that was clearly Okouchi stating that his run out of ideas than uses one that his already did that makes no sense.

Caswin: It is true that both are subjective. What I mean is that it takes a far greater offense to incite temptations of book-throwing than head-banging, the first of which is what this page (more reasonably) started off as, and the second of which it appears to have become.
Emperordaein: I am just wondering, do you think we should move this trope to Darth Wiki? It fits the bill well enough.

Thaother 1 Dude: Does "Dethroning Moment of Suck" cover essentially the same thing in Darth Wiki? Maybe she just fuse the examples together. Screw using this page, lets Take It to the Forums. It's easier to hold a continuous conversation there.

Cromage: Screw using the fora (the categories hurt my head) I vote "yes". (and this is a subtrope of "Dethroning Moment of Suck". Wall Banger is almost always a logic/portrayal glitch. A ridiculously long and boring car chase may be the last straw on a crappy film, but it's not a Wall Banger)
Caswin: Is there another image that we could use? This page was badly cheapened to begin with, even before it was split, but it was originally about things that were so ridiculously and unambiguously bad that you would follow the advice of one of the page quotes... not beat your head against the wall a few times. Or feel tempted to. Or (even more common when this page is linked to from other pages) think, "Writing gaffe I wasn't fond of. Wall Banger."

If this page has a future beyond "complaining about scenes you didn't like", does anyone have a picture of someone, oh, throwing a book-or-alternative-medium against the wall in anger?
  • DoomTay: Depends; can you throw a TV show or webcomic at a wall?

Caswin: No. And although I guess you could throw a TV or computer against the wall, a book would be plenty illustrative. It's just that so many of these sound like personal gripes (fudging the "head, meet wall" rule, let alone what the page was originally about) put forward as if they were representative of the whole fandom (or at least a major portion) loathing a particular moment.


Some New Guy: For fuck's sake, don't move it to Darth Wiki. We had this same situation less then a month ago, and it was decided to leave it as is. Stop beating the dead horse and opening old wounds.


C Banana: Based on this thread and the crowner, a move to Darth Wiki was made.

Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Understood. Though... had that crowner been linked to this page when the voting was open? I figured this page would go black eventually, but it would've been nice to have more warning.

Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: The top vote by a mile in the page-action vote that preceded the crowner was "Do Nothing." I am slightly annoyed. (Sorry.)

Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Okay, so — now that this page is in the Darth Wiki, does that mean Dethroning Moment of Suck should go?

Charred Knight: I see no reason why Dethroning Moment Of Sucks should exist as Wallbangers is a suitable alternative to the Crowning series.

Rampulus I think that Dethroning Moment of Suck should exist and that Wallbangers should go, since Dethroning Moments are the worstparts of a show, whereas Wallbangers have no such criteria apart from being objectionable for some reason (it doesn't specify whether they have to be illogical, disappointing, or offensive; if anyone is sufficiently upset with a plot twist, it tends to wind up on the page).