Expy Cleanup Thread

"Essentially" is a Weasel Word too. Typically an indicator that the argument is not well supported.

I'd say that one's valid, though.

It's intentional, as the games are made by the same people. They're both supremely strong, arrogant warriors with red armor, similar ponytails, and his dragon form has a burning mane, while Lu Bu's horse has a burning flame.

There's no way the similarities were accidental.

That post looks the stronger example, but which game?

Volga is an original character in Hyrule Warriors, he pretty much takes character traits, role, and weapon from Lu Bu in Dynasty Warriors. The games are both made by Omega Force and the Warriors series always have a Lu Bu expy character in it.

edited 22nd Jan '15 1:27:07 PM by Memers

If the given description is valid, then it isn't an example. Specifically the "Lu Bu with a little Volvagia" part means it violates part of the criteria : "If the proposed expy combines traits, characteristics, or features of two or more other characters, they are not an expy of any of them."

A bit more context on the Volga topic.

Volga is a character made for Hyrule Warriors who takes inspiration from the Zelda boss Volvagia and Lu Bu from Dynasty Warriors. The Volvagia inspiration is mostly applied cosmetically with Volga's armor and dragon form in design. The Lu Bu inspiration though dominates most of his entire character. Aesthetically, he's Volvagia but character-wise he's Lu Bu. More simply, it's basically Lu Bu wearing dragon style armor and possessing the ability to turn into a dragon.

There's also a DLC costume◊ which gives Volga a color scheme that's been noted to look more like Lu Bu's armor color scheme. Also as mentioned before, there's the fact that Hyrule Warriors was made by the same creators of Dynasty Warriors which kind of gives the situation more credence that it's deliberate.

Maybe reconsider the rules in situations like this. Volga does indeed combine traits from two characters. However the traits from one character appear to be mostly superficially cosmetically there so he wouldn't feel alien to the game universe he's in, while the other traits from the other appear way more prominent in his characterization and role.

edited 23rd Jan '15 4:50:25 AM by Elfkaiser

Then the character he's an Expy of is Lu Bu, with a cosmetic shout-out to Volgavia. He's not an expy of both of them.

His existence is inspired by Volgavia just in a way to excuse the fact that they managed to get a Lu Bu into the game, he is not an expy of him. Volgavia is just a Chinese fire dragon with absolutely no other character traits. Volga is a Blood Knight, who can transform into a western fire dragon, and is a walking Lu Bu clone.

The first time I saw Hyrule Warriors, it was being streamed by a Dynasty Warriors fan the commentary from the player the instant he saw him on the first level was 'Oh hey its the Lu Bu of this game.. crap we better run.'

The Lu Bu Expy should probably be a trope at this point seeing how many expies of him are walking around Warriors franchise games, Musha Gundam 1 and mk2 in Dynasty Warriors Gundam, Honda Tadakatsu in Samurai Warriors, Volga in Hyrule Warriors, I havent played One Piece Warriors, Dragon Quest Warriors, and the 50 other games so I am unsure who is what in that one but its expanded into the ripoffs like Sengoku Basara with again Honda Tadakatsu.

One wonders what the Lu Bu will be of the heavily rumored Super Mario Bros spinoff will be.

edited 23rd Jan '15 10:28:14 AM by Memers

Presenting one of my own entries for evaluation, from the Teen Wolf page:

Dr. Vallack, a character introduced last season. I've listed him as an expy for Dr. Hannibal Lecter, of The Silence of the Lambs and the movie franchise, as well as the TV show Hannibal.

1. He is a high-security prisoner, kept away from most visitors.

2. He is known to "get into people's heads." (Something Clarice Starling is warned about regarding Lecter in Lambs).

3. He has a very posh British accent.

4. He is Faux Affably Evil and appears Wicked Cultured.

5. His introductory scene is a re-staging of Lecter's famous introductory scene from The Silence of the Lambs, which is too precise to be anything but deliberate.

6. While Word of God has not specifically stated that this character is a version of Lecter, they are known to be fans of Hannibal.

As for the main differences, since Teen Wolf is Horror-Fantasy, Vallack has actual Psychic Powers, and since he's only recently been introduced, it's unknown if there are greater differences. It's also unclear if he's a cannibal (which I guess would be a big one). Would he be an Expy, or is it safer to go with homage?

I'm currently looking through the other examples on the page, such as they are, but I think they are less ambiguous.

edited 30th Jan '15 4:28:03 AM by hollygoolightly

Several questions regarding "unambiguous, deliberate copy of another character"

1. Is that a new definition? I believe it wasn't like that long ago.
2. Dunno, but to me "unambiguous" is still ambiguous. As long as someone made a counterargument or if evidences aren't convincing, it doesn't count - wouldn't it make it really inflexible?
3. Does "intentional" mean "two characters share a lot of traits to a high degree"?
4. From "copy", it says that similar hairstyle or outfit isn't enough to make an expy. Do we have a trope for similar hairstyle/outfit itself?
5. "another" makes an expy be a copy to only one character. What's the trope for someone mixing traits from a lot of characters? (Composite Character sounds like it's limited to adaptations, unless it can be broadened)

edited 30th Jan '15 4:41:53 AM by DAN004

Holly: So far it sounds like he's inspired by or a homage. There isn't enough information yet to know if he's supposed to be essentially the same character, filling the same role as Hannibal. I'd say "it's too early to tell if he's an expy, but keep an eye on him; he's got a good start."

Dan: The basic definition hasn't changed. All that was done in May of last year was that I stripped out a lot of weaselwording that had been added in over time to water it down.

The pinned header post addresses each of your questions. Please read it. "Intentional" does not hinge on "how much?"; it addresses "Did the creator do this deliberately?"

This thread is not going to open up redefining Expy; this is a clean-up thread.

edited 30th Jan '15 5:51:32 AM by Madrugada

Madrugada: thanks! I'll see how they'll develop him.

But when I asked this in Ask The Tropers, ppl there said it's okay for me to post that here...

Will Counterpart Comparison be the dumping ground for when fans alone compare two characters?

I've supported that option in the past, but I'm not really sure now.

Dan: If you're asking for clarification, this is the place. If you're looking to have the current criteria changed, you'll need very, very, very persuasive arguments in the opening post of a new TRS thread.

Maybe you're agitated cuz I complained about the criteria long ago. But not now; yes, I do want clarifications.

Now can somebody please just answer my questions? Afterwards I can stay away from this thread.

I'll try to answer:

1. No, that's been the definition for a long time.
2. Yeah, that is one part why these tropes are so problematic - people have very low thresholds for what they consider "substantial similarity", something I call apophenia.
3. In practice yes; since it's not a reliable indicator at all I've always thought that this trope should require Word of God to work but that's Repair Shop talk.
4. That's at best a Shout-Out, and without Word of God I would not accept that as an example of SO either.
5. Dunno if we have such a trope.

2. Do you think examples would require one to go to Discussion page one day, ala Five-Man Band now?

4. Okay, just found Whole Costume Reference. That should be related.

5. Do you think it's tropable? I might start a ykttw.

Despite people's need to pattern-match (oh, hey, there's apophenia again), creating characters by mixing traits from a lot of characters seems People Sit On Chairs to me. It is well known that creators pull inspiration from pretty much everything they experience, and trying to identify every example of influence seems an exercize in impossible tasks.

This is very true, and part of why we don't have tropes for every conceivable similarity between different characters.

I've recently been cleaning up Characters.Xenoblade and came across numerous expy examples that need discussing. I've sorted them into folders for convenience.

For the record, I'm fairly sure that the Xeno- games aren't a true series and are merely Spiritual Successors, and therefore, they don't violate the "characters cannot be expied from the same series" rule. I'm not 100% positive about that, though.

edited 1st Mar '15 11:22:32 PM by MyTimingIsOff

Shulk seems like he could qualify for Suspiciously Similar Substitute.

edited 2nd Mar '15 7:43:00 AM by Larkmarn

Running down "Other":

Shulk - So he's The Chosen One with a tragic past? Yeah, him and a thousand other RPG protagonists. Next.

Fiora- Mixing elements of multiple characters- no go. Next.

Mumkhar- This is a little more specific, but it still needs more details. "Unpleasant man brought back to life" describes many villains.

Alvis- Seems ok, if vague.

Egil- "In the sense that" and "to some extent" in the same example? Huge red flag.

Zanza- Seems ok, if vague.

Big Hero 6 has some expy issues:

On the mainpage, there's this entry:

• Expy- Besides their comic counterparts, Disney's Big Hero 6 are also partially inspired by a few Marvel heroes and other fictional characters. For example: Hiro being a combination of Peter Parker and Tony Stark.

On the character pages, Hiro is again described as a combo of Peter Parker and Tony Stark

Honey Lemon has this- "Her blonde hair, green eyes, and upbeat and excitable personality makes her a modern day version of [[Tangled Rapunzel]."

For this butler character, Heathliff: "Expy: Of other valets like Jarvis and Batman's Alfred."

And finally, for the villain, Yokai: "Yokai is inspired by an obscure Marvel Comics villain called Lord Deathstrike, whose more-famous sister is one of Wolverine's nemeses. He was a professional assassin who also wore a kabuki mask."

So, going through these expy entries:

• Hero is a Gadgeteer Genius character in a comic book movie, which may evoke similarities to those characters, but he's not an expy of them. In fact, I don't really see much personality similarity with either.

• Honey Lemon is a case of Reused Character Design, not expy. Although both are bubbly, I don't really see her as all that similar a character to Rapunzel (for one thing, Rapunzel is very naive whereas Honey Lemon is sort of a Cool Big Sis / Team Mom and thus has the opposite characterization)

• Heathcliff is just The Jeeves- he's not really an expy of either of those guys- it's just that all three are examples of the same trope

• This is what Lord Deathstroke looks like◊. I don't know anything about the character, but the impression I get from the example is that the two just have similar character design and that's it. And even with that, Yokai looks fairly different (Yokai has a more sinister mask and wears a cloak rather than a nice suit).

Oh, you mentioned Big Hero 6 and I thought we'd have someone readding Captain America for Gogo, or Wolverine for Wasabi (seriously).

This is relatively tame.

I agree most of them can all go, though Lord Deathstrike does seem reasonable to me. "Gadget-based killer wearing dark clothes with a kabuki mask in a Marvel property" seems pretty intentional and specific.