Discussion History Series / NakedAndAfraidXL

* I\\\'m also not sure if \\\"the British\\\" really hate it when the similarities between the English and French Revolution are pointed out, after all not every Briton today is an 18th century Tory.
** \\\'\\\'As a Frenchman, I experienced first hand how the ordinary British, even students attending French university, sees the French Revolution as the epitome of the violent and bloody revolution, and how they are left speechless when one reminds them that they judged and cut the head of their King too. The French Revolution is still kind of a \\\"repoussoir\\\", especially in Great-Britain. To the ordinary British, French Revolution = Guillotine and that\\\'s pretty much it. This is a bit less true in the USA it seems if I believee some crash course videos I\\\'ve seen\\\'\\\'.

* They resisted the (totalitarian) attempt of the revolutionary government to turn religion and the Catholic church into tools for the government to control the hearts and minds of the people
** Ouuuuuuulà, \\\'\\\'That\\\'s really a pretty twisted view of the things. First, what did the Kings other than turn religion and the Catholic church into tools for the governements to control the hearts and minds of the people ? They Kings by \\\"divine right\\\", Church theologically justified the monarchy and obedience to how the society worked, and intolerance against protestants and Jews was commonplace before the Revolution.\\\'\\\'
** \\\'\\\'Second, the Civil Constitution of the clergy was really nothing new, as it was part of a tradition initiated by the French Kings to have the French church dependant from them (that is called gallicanism) but they were cunning enough to never anger the Pope enough so they didn\\\'t got Henry VIII\\\'s problems.\\\'\\\'
** \\\'\\\'The \\\"Control the hearts and mind of people\\\" can be reversed: the Pope controlled the hearts and minds, as there were no problem until he declared the civil constitution was a bad thing, under influence from the émigrés\\\'\\\'
** \\\'\\\'If having the government making priests as public officers is totalitarian, so what about all these countries who have a state religion ?\\\'\\\'
** \\\'\\\'The spark for the Vendée war was the refusal of the \\\"levée en masse\\\", religion came quickly after the first fights and the royalty only once the peasants took some local noblemen for leaders.\\\'\\\'

* And she must have looked at what she did as very similar to what Anne of Austria did - Anne fled from Paris with her family (taking Louis XIV and his brother to St. Germain-en-Laye) during the uprising in support of the Fronde, and thus was able to hand over the reins of government to Louis in a way that enabled him to put the \\\"absolute\\\" in \\\"absolute monarchy\\\" (Anne too was loyal to the king, not an abstract \\\"nation\\\", to claim otherwise is a-historic). So from her POV calling in the army was not disloyal to her king and country, but instead a way of restoring \\\"God\\\'s Anointed\\\" to his rightful place
** \\\'\\\'You have to present the full picture. Yes Anne of Austria fled Paris. No, she didn\\\'t do it with the intent to go to foreign country. Furthermore, France was at war with her native country, Spain, and she never asked for help from Spain against the Fronde, unlike Marie-Antoinette did. Anna of Austria shows that it is perfectly possible to be a foreign queen facing an insurrection and to not ask help from your native country against your own people. She perfectly understood that doing so would have disastrously weakened her and her son\\\'s position. Marie-Antoinette didn\\\'t understand that, which shows her limits. She hid herself behind Louis XVI at her trial, but it has been proven since that several of her moves towards Austria were done in his back. Her attitude really is more like the 19th monarchs calling for Metternich and Austria\\\'s help when their people obtained democratic changes through upprising, unraveling the changes once the Austrians had trounced the democrats.\\\'\\\'

* Etienne Marcel, who at least since the 3rd Republic is regarded as a national hero, conspired with the English during the Hundred Years War.
** \\\'\\\'Marcel is a Parisian hero, not a national one. The narrative about him is not very friendly to him these days. He\\\'s described as a power-hungry opportunist who really only cared about himself and/or the merchant class. His alliance with the English and his miserable death are quite well-known. He\\\'s no more part of the national education story of democracy in France.\\\'\\\'

* I\\\'m also not sure if \\\"the British\\\" really hate it when the similarities between the English and French Revolution are pointed out, after all not every Briton today is an 18th century Tory.
** \\\'\\\'As a Frenchman, I experienced first hand how the ordinary British, even students attending French university, sees the French Revolution as the epitome of the violent and bloody revolution, and how they are left speechless when one reminds them that they judged and cut the head of their King too. The French Revolution is still kind of a \\\"repoussoir\\\", especially in Great-Britain. To the ordinary British, French Revolution = Guillotine and that\\\'s pretty much it. This is a bit less true in the USA it seems if I believee some crash course videos I\\\'ve seen\\\'\\\'.

* They resisted the (totalitarian) attempt of the revolutionary government to turn religion and the Catholic church into tools for the government to control the hearts and minds of the people
** Ouuuuuuulà, \\\'\\\'That\\\'s really a pretty twisted view of the things. First, what did the Kings other than turn religion and the Catholic church into tools for the governements to control the hearts and minds of the people ? They Kings by \\\"divine right\\\", Church theologically justified the monarchy and obedience to how the society worked, and intolerance against protestants and Jews was commonplace before the Revolution.\\\'\\\'
** \\\'\\\'Second, the Civil Constitution of the clergy was really nothing new, as it was part of a tradition initiated by the French Kings to have the French church dependant from them (that is called gallicanism) but they were cunning enough to never anger the Pope enough so they didn\\\'t got Henry VIII\\\'s problems.\\\'\\\'
** \\\'\\\'The \\\"Control the hearts and mind of people\\\" can be reversed: the Pope controlled the hearts and minds, as there were no problem until he declared the civil constitution was a bad thing, under influence from the émigrés\\\'\\\'
** \\\'\\\'If having the government making priests as public officers is totalitarian, so what about all these countries who have a state religion ?\\\'\\\'
** \\\'\\\'The spark for the Vendée war was the refusal of the \\\"levée en masse\\\", religion came quickly after the first fights and the royalty only once the peasants took some local noblemen for leaders.\\\'\\\'

* And she must have looked at what she did as very similar to what Anne of Austria did - Anne fled from Paris with her family (taking Louis XIV and his brother to St. Germain-en-Laye) during the uprising in support of the Fronde, and thus was able to hand over the reins of government to Louis in a way that enabled him to put the \\\"absolute\\\" in \\\"absolute monarchy\\\" (Anne too was loyal to the king, not an abstract \\\"nation\\\", to claim otherwise is a-historic). So from her POV calling in the army was not disloyal to her king and country, but instead a way of restoring \\\"God\\\'s Anointed\\\" to his rightful place
** \\\'\\\'You have to present the full picture. Yes Anne of Austria fled Paris. No, she didn\\\'t do it with the intent to go to foreign country. Furthermore, France was at war with her native country, Spain, and she never asked for help from Spain against the Fronde, unlike Marie-Antoinette did. Anna of Austria shows that it is perfectly possible to be a foreign queen facing an insurrection and to not ask help from your native country against your own people. She perfectly understood that doing so would have disastrously weakened her and her son\\\'s position. Marie-Antoinette didn\\\'t understand that, which shows her limits. She hid herself behind Louis XVI at her trial, but it has been proven since that several of her moves towards Austria were down in his back.\\\'\\\'

* Etienne Marcel, who at least since the 3rd Republic is regarded as a national hero, conspired with the English during the Hundred Years War.
** \\\'\\\'Marcel is a Parisian hero, not a national one. The narrative about him is not very friendly to him these days. He\\\'s described as a power-hungry opportunist who really only cared about himself and/or the merchant class. His alliance with the English and his miserable death are quite well-known. He\\\'s no more part of the national education story of democracy in France.\\\'\\\'

* I\\\'m also not sure if \\\"the British\\\" really hate it when the similarities between the English and French Revolution are pointed out, after all not every Briton today is an 18th century Tory.
** \\\'\\\'As a Frenchman, I experienced first hand how the ordinary British, even students attending French university, sees the French Revolution as the epitome of the violent and bloody revolution, and how they are left speechless when one reminds them that they judged and cut the head of their King too. The French Revolution is still kind of a \\\"repoussoir\\\", especially in Great-Britain. To the ordinary British, French Revolution = Guillotine and that\\\'s pretty much it. This is a bit less true in the USA it seems if I believee some crash course videos I\\\'ve seen\\\'\\\'.

* They resisted the (totalitarian) attempt of the revolutionary government to turn religion and the Catholic church into tools for the government to control the hearts and minds of the people
** Ouuuuuuulà, \\\'\\\'That\\\'s really a pretty twisted view of the things. First, what did the Kings other than turn religion and the Catholic church into tools for the governements to control the hearts and minds of the people ? They Kings by \\\"divine right\\\", Church theologically justified the monarchy and obedience to how the society worked, and intolerance against protestants and Jews was commonplace before the Revolution.\\\'\\\'
** \\\'\\\'Second, the Civil Constitution of the clergy was really nothing new, as it was part of a tradition initiated by the French Kings to have the French church dependant from them (that is called gallicanism) but they were cunning enough to never anger the Pope enough so they didn\\\'t got Henry VIII\\\'s problems.\\\'\\\'
** \\\'\\\'The \\\"Control the hearts and mind of people\\\" can be reversed: the Pope controlled the hearts and minds, as there were no problem until he declared the civil constitution was a bad thing, under influence from the émigrés\\\'\\\'
** \\\'\\\'If having the government making priests as public officers is totalitarian, so what about all these countries who have a state religion ?\\\'\\\'
** \\\'\\\'The spark for the Vendée war was the refusal of the \\\"levée en masse\\\", religion came quickly after the first fights and the royalty only once the peasants took some local noblemen for leaders.

* And she must have looked at what she did as very similar to what Anne of Austria did - Anne fled from Paris with her family (taking Louis XIV and his brother to St. Germain-en-Laye) during the uprising in support of the Fronde, and thus was able to hand over the reins of government to Louis in a way that enabled him to put the \\\"absolute\\\" in \\\"absolute monarchy\\\" (Anne too was loyal to the king, not an abstract \\\"nation\\\", to claim otherwise is a-historic). So from her POV calling in the army was not disloyal to her king and country, but instead a way of restoring \\\"God\\\'s Anointed\\\" to his rightful place
** \\\'\\\'You have to present the full picture. Yes Anne of Austria fled Paris. No, she didn\\\'t do it with the intent to go to foreign country. Furthermore, France was at war with her native country, Spain, and she never asked for help from Spain against the Fronde, unlike Marie-Antoinette did. Anna of Austria shows that it is perfectly possible to be a foreign queen facing an insurrection and to not ask help from your native country against your own people. She perfectly understood that doing so would have disastrously weakened her and her son\\\'s position. Marie-Antoinette didn\\\'t understand that, which shows her limits. She hid herself behind Louis XVI at her trial, but it has been proven since that several of her moves towards Austria were down in his back.\\\'\\\'

* \\\'\\\'Etienne Marcel, who at least since the 3rd Republic is regarded as a national hero, conspired with the English during the Hundred Years War.\\\'\\\'
** Marcel is a Parisian hero, not a national one. The narrative about him is not very friendly to him these days. He\\\'s described as a power-hungry opportunist who really only cared about himself and/or the merchant class. His alliance with the English and his miserable death are quite well-known. He\\\'s no more part of the national education story of democracy in France.\\\'\\\'

* I\\\'m also not sure if \\\"the British\\\" really hate it when the similarities between the English and French Revolution are pointed out, after all not every Briton today is an 18th century Tory.
** \\\'\\\'As a Frenchman, I experienced first hand how the ordinary British, even students attending French university, sees the French Revolution as the epitome of the violent and bloody revolution, and how they are left speechless when one reminds them that they judged and cut the head of their King too. The French Revolution is still kind of a \\\"repoussoir\\\", especially in Great-Britain. To the ordinary British, French Revolution = Guillotine and that\\\'s pretty much it. This is a bit less true in the USA it seems if I believee some crash course videos I\\\'ve seen\\\'\\\'.

* They resisted the (totalitarian) attempt of the revolutionary government to turn religion and the Catholic church into tools for the government to control the hearts and minds of the people
** Ouuuuuuulà, \\\'\\\'That\\\'s really a pretty twisted view of the things. First, what did the Kings other than turn religion and the Catholic church into tools for the governements to control the hearts and minds of the people ? They Kings by \\\"divine right\\\", Church theologically justified the monarchy and obedience to how the society worked, and intolerance against protestants and Jews was commonplace before the Revolution.\\\'\\\'
Second, the Civil Constitution of the clergy was really nothing new, as it was part of a tradition initiated by the French Kings to have the French church dependant from them (that is called gallicanism) but they were cunning enough to never anger the Pope enough so they didn\\\'t got Henry VIII\\\'s problems.\\\'\\\'
** \\\'\\\'The \\\"Control the hearts and mind of people\\\" can be reversed: the Pope controlled the hearts and minds, as there were no problem until he declared the civil constitution was a bad thing, under influence from the émigrés\\\'\\\'
** \\\'\\\'If having the government making priests as public officers is totalitarian, so what about all these countries who have a state religion ?\\\'\\\'
** \\\'\\\'The spark for the Vendée war was the refusal of the \\\"levée en masse\\\", religion came quickly after the first fights and the royalty only once the peasants took some local noblemen for leaders.

* And she must have looked at what she did as very similar to what Anne of Austria did - Anne fled from Paris with her family (taking Louis XIV and his brother to St. Germain-en-Laye) during the uprising in support of the Fronde, and thus was able to hand over the reins of government to Louis in a way that enabled him to put the \\\"absolute\\\" in \\\"absolute monarchy\\\" (Anne too was loyal to the king, not an abstract \\\"nation\\\", to claim otherwise is a-historic). So from her POV calling in the army was not disloyal to her king and country, but instead a way of restoring \\\"God\\\'s Anointed\\\" to his rightful place
** \\\'\\\'You have to present the full picture. Yes Anne of Austria fled Paris. No, she didn\\\'t do it with the intent to go to foreign country. Furthermore, France was at war with her native country, Spain, and she never asked for help from Spain against the Fronde, unlike Marie-Antoinette did. Anna of Austria shows that it is perfectly possible to be a foreign queen facing an insurrection and to not ask help from your native country against your own people. She perfectly understood that doing so would have disastrously weakened her and her son\\\'s position. Marie-Antoinette didn\\\'t understand that, which shows her limits. She hid herself behind Louis XVI at her trial, but it has been proven since that several of her moves towards Austria were down in his back.\\\'\\\'

* \\\'\\\'Etienne Marcel, who at least since the 3rd Republic is regarded as a national hero, conspired with the English during the Hundred Years War.\\\'\\\'
** Marcel is a Parisian hero, not a national one. The narrative about him is not very friendly to him these days. He\\\'s described as a power-hungry opportunist who really only cared about himself and/or the merchant class. His alliance with the English and his miserable death are quite well-known. He\\\'s no more part of the national education story of democracy in France.\\\'\\\'