Discussion History Series / Homeland

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[004] 69.133.102.52 Current Version

12th Nov '13 at 01:36:22 AM

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Isn\'t it clear that Saul, as of episode 3.02, has made a FaceHeelTurn?

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Isn\\\'t it clear that Saul, as of episode 3.02, has made a FaceHeelTurn?

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(It turned out he didn\\\'t, and everyone can agree on that now: We were intentionally misled by the writing for most of 4 episodes. I don\\\'t think the discussion can be deleted, and there\\\'s no reason to anyway. I just thought it should be noted that this argument was before the \\\"reveal\\\" that many consider an AssPull at the end of Season 3, Episode 4).

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From the AntiVillain trope: \

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From the AntiVillain trope: \\\"The Anti-Villain is a villain with heroic goals, personality traits, and/or virtues. Their desired ends are mostly good, but their means of getting there are evil.\\\" [[SlidingScaleOfAntiVillains Anti-Villain Type 3 (where I think Saul now fits)]]: \\\"They may believe in a good goal, but use whatever means there are to achieve it. The sympathy the audience can garner for this character comes from the fact that they basically share the same goal as the hero, but are pragmatically, expediently, or pessimistically, ruthless about it. They can very much be conscious about their morally questionable actions, but feel that there is no other way.\\\"

But suppose you don\\\'t even think Saul\\\'s means are so bad. Then, he\\\'s \\\'\\\'\\\'still\\\'\\\'\\\' Anti-Villain Type IV: \\\"These characters either lack any villainous traits whatsoever or have so much concern over others that any signs of villainy are nearly completely drowned out. Frequently, these characters are called villains only because they fight against the hero.\\\" Can \\\'\\\'\\\'anyone\\\'\\\'\\\' dispute that Saul is fighting against the hero?

[003] 69.133.102.52

9th Oct '13 at 07:41:29 PM

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It would be different if he knew Carrie had helped Brody escape, because in his shoes I think I\'d believe that Brody was responsible for the bombing at Walden\'s funeral. But that\'s not why he\'s locking her up: It\'s just to keep her from talking to the press. That doesn\'t make Saul a monster, but AntiVillain, having had a FaceHeelTurn, obviously. Any antagonist is at least an anti-villain, unless the protagonist has become a VillainProtagonist, and Carrie has not.

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It would be different if he knew Carrie had helped Brody escape, because in his shoes I think I\\\'d believe that Brody was responsible for the bombing at Walden\\\'s funeral. But that\\\'s not why he\\\'s locking her up: It\\\'s just to keep her from talking to the press. That doesn\\\'t make Saul a monster, but AntiVillain, having had a FaceHeelTurn, obviously. Any antagonist is at least an anti-villain, unless the protagonist has become a VillainProtagonist, and Carrie has not.

From the AntiVillain trope: \\\"The Anti-Villain is a villain with heroic goals, personality traits, and/or virtues. Their desired ends are mostly good, but their means of getting there are evil.\\\" [[SlidingScaleOfAntiVillains Anti-Villain Type 3 (where I think Saul now fits)]]: \\\"They may believe in a good goal, but use whatever means there are to achieve it. The sympathy the audience can garner for this character comes from the fact that they basically share the same goal as the hero, but are pragmatically, expediently, or pessimistically, ruthless about it. They can very much be conscious about their morally questionable actions, but feel that there is no other way.\\\"

But suppose you don\\\'t even think Saul\\\'s means are so bad. Then, he\\\'s \\\'\\\'\\\'still\\\'\\\'\\\' Anti-Villain Type IV: \\\"These characters either lack any villainous traits whatsoever or have so much concern over others that any signs of villainy are nearly completely drowned out. Frequently, these characters are called villains only because they fight against the hero.\\\" Can \\\'\\\'\\\'anyone\\\'\\\'\\\' dispute that Saul is fighting against the hero?

[002] 69.133.102.52

9th Oct '13 at 07:17:48 PM

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I actually wasn\'t really for it being on the page between 3.01 and 3.02, although what I did then after someone else added it was attempt to qualify it and added that we couldn\'t know for sure at that point. I had no problem then with it being removed.

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I actually wasn\\\'t really for it being on the page between 3.01 and 3.02, although what I did then after someone else added it was attempt to qualify it and added that we couldn\\\'t know for sure at that point. I had no problem then with it being removed. After 3.02 I added it, and a troper removed it, twice. I have it on the YMMV page for now. If it\\\'s removed from there, that\\\'s just an abuse. But rather than EditWar over the main page, I thought I\\\'d open up discussion (and future events leave everything open to review by all).

[001] 69.133.102.52

9th Oct '13 at 07:14:18 PM

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Spoiler tagged for those who don\'t want to read about Season 3 because they haven\'t seen it yet:

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Tried to spoiler tag this, but the usual method did not work:

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[[spoiler: Isn\'t it clear that Saul, as of episode 3.02, has made a FaceHeelTurn?

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Isn\\\'t it clear that Saul, as of episode 3.02, has made a FaceHeelTurn?

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