Discussion History Characters / TheSilmarillion

Maia Maiden, I will quote the whole sentence from \\\"Quendi and Eldar\\\" for clarity. The \\\"by force\\\" is not my merely interpretation but is explicit in the text. Saying that JRRT was wholly against this interpretation requires you to dismiss/ignore his actual statements as FanonDiscontinuity. Which is fine, you can\\\'t have a self-consistent Arda without a ton of FanonDiscontinuity, but that\\\'s irrelevant to the content of this Characters/ page.

\\\"Quendi and Eldar\\\" (written Nov 1959 - Mar 1960 by Creator/JRRTolkien), \\\'\\\'History of Middle-earth\\\'\\\' Volume XII, \\\'\\\'The War of the Jewels\\\'\\\', p. 409 (hardcover, tradeback):

->\\\"Eöl found Irith, the sister of King Turgon, astray in the wild near his dwelling, and he took her to wife by force: a very wicked deed in the eyes of the Eldar.\\\"

And I doubt that the man who murdered his wife while trying to poison his son was held up by Tolkien as a moral paragon. Also bear in mind the context of this sentence is a paragraph describing the ways in which some Dark Elves were less than morally upstanding, going on to cite Maeglin and Saeros.

Of your recollection that elves are incapable of committing adultery or rape: do you remember at all where you read it? Possibly I own the book and can look it up. If you\\\'re thinking of \\\"Laws and Customs,\\\" I\\\'m pretty sure you\\\'re mis-remembering (I\\\'m checking it now).

Edit: I\\\'ve got the part of \\\"Laws and Customs\\\" you\\\'re probably remembering (HOME vol. X p. 228). It states that \\\"The Eldar [here apparently all Elves/Quendi] wedded once and for all. ... there is no record of any among the Elves that took another\\\'s spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life...\\\" So here Elves do not rape married Elves; presumably don\\\'t commit adultery at all. It doesn\\\'t actually say anything about unlawful marriages inflicted on an unwilling but \\\'\\\'unwed\\\'\\\' elf. (This is an endnote to the passage that states \\\"marriage\\\" for Elves is accomplished solely by bodily union, aka. sex.)

But regardless, Tolkien contradicts himself a lot in the unpublished/unfinished writings. The Characters page says right on it, contradiction doesn\\\'t mean you have to remove something. So if \\\"Laws and Customs\\\" or whatever contradicts \\\"Quendi and Eldar,\\\" \\\'\\\'it does not matter\\\'\\\'. This Characters/ page doesn\\\'t establish any book as more {{Canon}} than another.

And I would be more surprised at those who \\\'\\\'aren\\\'t\\\'\\\' traumatized by incest slash fics. Why did you subject yourself to that? *shudder*

As for Maeglin, Celegorm, etc. I do not recall any passage stating they were planning rape. My \\\'\\\'interpretation\\\'\\\' is that Maeglin could have intended nothing else, since he expressely set out to murder Tuor and Eärendil, and Morgoth had offered to let him possess Idril. I don\\\'t know what else that could mean.

Edit: Yes, that would appear to contradict \\\"Laws and Customs,\\\" hmmm.

Maia Maiden, please see my quote from \\\"Quendi and Eldar.\\\" I will quote the whole sentence to make clear that I did not make this up, it is not Fanon. I feel that accusing me (and others) of imagining it to maliciously \\\"flame\\\" Tolkien or whoever is rude. Claiming that Tolkien was wholly against this interpretation requires you to dismiss/ignore his actual statements as FanonDiscontinuity. Which is fine, you can\\\'t have a consistent Arda without a ton of FanonDiscontinuity, but that\\\'s irrelevant to the content of this Characters/ page.

\\\"Quendi and Eldar\\\" (written Nov 1959 - Mar 1960 by Creator/JRRTolkien), \\\'\\\'History of Middle-earth\\\'\\\' Volume XII, \\\'\\\'The War of the Jewels\\\'\\\', p. 409 (hardcover, tradeback):

->\\\"Eöl found Irith, the sister of King Turgon, astray in the wild near his dwelling, and he took her to wife by force: a very wicked deed in the eyes of the Eldar.\\\"

And I doubt that the man who murdered his wife while trying to poison his son was held up by Tolkien as a moral paragon. Also bear in mind the context of this sentence is a paragraph describing the ways in which some Dark Elves were less than morally upstanding, going on to cite Maeglin and Saeros.

Of your recollection that elves are incapable of committing adultery or rape: do you remember at all where you read it? Possibly I own the book and can look it up. If you\\\'re thinking of \\\"Laws and Customs,\\\" I\\\'m pretty sure you\\\'re mis-remembering (I\\\'m checking it now).

Edit: I\\\'ve got the part of \\\"Laws and Customs\\\" you\\\'re probably remembering (HOME vol. X p. 228). It states that \\\"The Eldar [here apparently all Elves/Quendi] wedded once and for all. ... there is no record of any among the Elves that took another\\\'s spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life...\\\" So here Elves do not rape married Elves; presumably don\\\'t commit adultery at all. It doesn\\\'t actually say anything about unlawful marriages inflicted on an unwilling but \\\'\\\'unwed\\\'\\\' elf. (This is an endnote to the passage that states \\\"marriage\\\" for Elves is accomplished solely by bodily union, aka. sex.)

But regardless, Tolkien contradicts himself a lot in the unpublished/unfinished writings. The Characters page says right on it, contradiction doesn\\\'t mean you have to remove something. So if \\\"Laws and Customs\\\" or whatever contradicts \\\"Quendi and Eldar,\\\" \\\'\\\'it does not matter\\\'\\\'. This Characters/ page doesn\\\'t establish any book as more {{Canon}} than another.

And I would be more surprised at those who \\\'\\\'aren\\\'t\\\'\\\' traumatized by incest slash fics. Why did you subject yourself to that? *shudder*

As for Maeglin, Celegorm, etc. I do not recall any passage stating they were planning rape. My \\\'\\\'interpretation\\\'\\\' is that Maeglin could have intended nothing else, since he expressely set out to murder Tuor and Eärendil, and Morgoth had offered to let him possess Idril. I don\\\'t know what else that could mean.

Edit: Yes, that would appear to contradict \\\"Laws and Customs,\\\" hmmm.

Maia Maiden, please see my quote from \\\"Quendi and Eldar.\\\" I will quote the whole sentence to make clear that I did not make this up, it is not Fanon. I feel that accusing me (and others) of imagining it to maliciously \\\"flame\\\" Tolkien or whoever is rude. Claiming that Tolkien was wholly against this interpretation requires you to dismiss/ignore his actual statements as FanonDiscontinuity. Which is fine, you can\\\'t have a consistent Arda without a ton of FanonDiscontinuity, but that\\\'s irrelevant to the content of this Characters/ page.

\\\"Quendi and Eldar\\\" (written Nov 1959 - Mar 1960 by Creator/JRRTolkien), \\\'\\\'History of Middle-earth\\\'\\\' Volume XII, \\\'\\\'The War of the Jewels\\\'\\\', p. 409 (hardcover, tradeback):

->\\\"Eöl found Irith, the sister of King Turgon, astray in the wild near his dwelling, and he took her to wife by force: a very wicked deed in the eyes of the Eldar.\\\"

And I doubt that the man who murdered his wife while trying to poison his son was held up by Tolkien as a moral paragon. Also bear in mind the context of this sentence is a paragraph describing the ways in which some Dark Elves were less than morally upstanding, going on to cite Maeglin and Saeros.

Of your recollection that elves are incapable of committing adultery or rape: do you remember at all where you read it? Possibly I own the book and can look it up. If you\\\'re thinking of \\\"Laws and Customs,\\\" I\\\'m pretty sure you\\\'re mis-remembering (I\\\'m checking it now).

Edit: I\\\'ve got the part of \\\"Laws and Customs\\\" you\\\'re probably remembering (HOME vol. X p. 228). It states that \\\"The Eldar [here apparently all Elves/Quendi] wedded once and for all. ... there is no record of any among the Elves that took another\\\'s spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life...\\\" So here Elves do not rape married Elves; presumably don\\\'t commit adultery at all. It doesn\\\'t actually say anything about unlawful marriages inflicted on an unwilling but \\\'\\\'unwed\\\'\\\' elf.

But regardless, Tolkien contradicts himself a lot in the unpublished/unfinished writings. The Characters page says right on it, contradiction doesn\\\'t mean you have to remove something. So if \\\"Laws and Customs\\\" or whatever contradicts \\\"Quendi and Eldar,\\\" \\\'\\\'it does not matter\\\'\\\'. This Characters/ page doesn\\\'t establish any book as more {{Canon}} than another.

And I would be more surprised at those who \\\'\\\'aren\\\'t\\\'\\\' traumatized by incest slash fics. Why did you subject yourself to that? *shudder*

As for Maeglin, Celegorm, etc. I do not recall any passage stating they were planning rape. My \\\'\\\'interpretation\\\'\\\' is that Maeglin could have intended nothing else, since he expressely set out to murder Tuor and Eärendil, and Morgoth had offered to let him possess Idril. I don\\\'t know what else that could mean.

Edit: Yes, that would appear to contradict \\\"Laws and Customs,\\\" hmmm.

Maia Maiden, please see my quote from \\\"Quendi and Eldar.\\\" I will quote the whole sentence to make clear that I did not make this up, it is not Fanon. I feel that accusing me (and others) of imagining it to maliciously \\\"flame\\\" Tolkien or whoever is rude. Claiming that Tolkien was wholly against this interpretation requires you to dismiss/ignore his actual statements as FanonDiscontinuity. Which is fine, you can\\\'t have a consistent Arda without a ton of FanonDiscontinuity, but that\\\'s irrelevant to the content of this Characters/ page.

\\\"Quendi and Eldar\\\" (written Nov 1959 - Mar 1960 by Creator/JRRTolkien), \\\'\\\'History of Middle-earth\\\'\\\' Volume XII, \\\'\\\'The War of the Jewels\\\'\\\', p. 409 (hardcover, tradeback):

->\\\"Eöl found Irith, the sister of King Turgon, astray in the wild near his dwelling, and he took her to wife by force: a very wicked deed in the eyes of the Eldar.\\\"

And I doubt that the man who murdered his wife while trying to poison his son was held up by Tolkien as a moral paragon. Also bear in mind the context of this sentence is a paragraph describing the ways in which some Dark Elves were less than morally upstanding, going on to cite Maeglin and Saeros.

Of your recollection that elves are incapable of committing adultery or rape: do you remember at all where you read it? Possibly I own the book and can look it up. If you\\\'re thinking of \\\"Laws and Customs,\\\" I\\\'m pretty sure you\\\'re mis-remembering (I\\\'m checking it now).

Edit: I\\\'ve got the part of \\\"Laws and Customs\\\" you\\\'re probably remembering (HOME vol. X p. 228]. It states that \\\"The Eldar [here apparently all Elves/Quendi] wedded once and for all. ... there is no record of any among the Elves that took another\\\'s spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life...\\\" So here Elves do not rape married Elves; presumably don\\\'t commit adultery at all. It doesn\\\'t actually say anything about unlawful marriages inflicted on an unwilling but \\\'\\\'unwed\\\'\\\' elf.

But regardless, Tolkien contradicts himself a lot in the unpublished/unfinished writings. The Characters page says right on it, contradiction doesn\\\'t mean you have to remove something. So if \\\"Laws and Customs\\\" or whatever contradicts \\\"Quendi and Eldar,\\\" \\\'\\\'it does not matter\\\'\\\'. This Characters/ page doesn\\\'t establish any book as more {{Canon}} than another.

And I would be more surprised at those who \\\'\\\'aren\\\'t\\\'\\\' traumatized by incest slash fics. Why did you subject yourself to that? *shudder*

As for Maeglin, Celegorm, etc. I do not recall any passage stating they were planning rape. My \\\'\\\'interpretation\\\'\\\' is that Maeglin could have intended nothing else, since he expressely set out to murder Tuor and Eärendil, and Morgoth had offered to let him possess Idril. I don\\\'t know what else that could mean.

Edit: Yes, that would appear to contradict \\\"Laws and Customs,\\\" hmmm.

Maia Maiden, please see my quote from \\\"Quendi and Eldar.\\\" I will quote the whole sentence to make clear that I did not make this up, it is not Fanon. I feel that accusing me (and others) of imagining it to maliciously \\\"flame\\\" Tolkien or whoever is rude. Claiming that Tolkien was wholly against this interpretation requires you to dismiss/ignore his actual statements as FanonDiscontinuity. Which is fine, you can\\\'t have a consistent Arda without a ton of FanonDiscontinuity, but that\\\'s irrelevant to the content of this Characters/ page.

\\\"Quendi and Eldar\\\" (written Nov 1959 - Mar 1960 by Creator/JRRTolkien), \\\'\\\'History of Middle-earth\\\'\\\' Volume XII, \\\'\\\'The War of the Jewels\\\'\\\', p. 409 (hardcover, tradeback):

->\\\"Eöl found Irith, the sister of King Turgon, astray in the wild near his dwelling, and he took her to wife by force: a very wicked deed in the eyes of the Eldar.\\\"

And I doubt that the man who murdered his wife while trying to poison his son was held up by Tolkien as a moral paragon. Also bear in mind the context of this sentence is a paragraph describing the ways in which some Dark Elves were less than morally upstanding, going on to cite Maeglin and Saeros.

Of your recollection that elves are incapable of committing adultery or rape: do you remember at all where you read it? Possibly I own the book and can look it up. If you\\\'re thinking of \\\"Laws and Customs,\\\" I\\\'m pretty sure you\\\'re mis-remembering (I\\\'m checking it now).

But regardless, Tolkien contradicts himself a lot in the unpublished/unfinished writings. The Characters page says right on it, contradiction doesn\\\'t mean you have to remove something. So if \\\"Laws and Customs\\\" or whatever contradicts \\\"Quendi and Eldar,\\\" \\\'\\\'it does not matter\\\'\\\'. This page doesn\\\'t establish any book as more {{Canon}} than another.

And I would be more surprised at those who \\\'\\\'aren\\\'t\\\'\\\' traumatized by incest slash fics. Why would you subject yourself to that? *shudder*

As for Maeglin, Celegorm, etc. I do not recall any passage stating they were planning rape. My \\\'\\\'interpretation\\\'\\\' is that Maeglin could have intended nothing else, since he expressely set out to murder Tuor and Eärendil, and Morgoth had offered to let him possess Idril. I don\\\'t know what else that could mean.

Maia Maiden, please see my quote from \\\"Quendi and Eldar.\\\" I will quote the whole sentence to make clear that I did not make this up, it is not Fanon. I feel that accusing me (and others) of imagining it to maliciously \\\"flame\\\" Tolkien or whoever is rude. Claiming that Tolkien was wholly against this interpretation requires you to dismiss/ignore his actual statements as FanonDiscontinuity.

\\\"Quendi and Eldar\\\" (written Nov 1959 - Mar 1960 by Creator/JRRTolkien), \\\'\\\'History of Middle-earth\\\'\\\' Volume XII, \\\'\\\'The War of the Jewels\\\'\\\', p. 409 (hardcover, tradeback):

->\\\"Eöl found Irith, the sister of King Turgon, astray in the wild near his dwelling, and he took her to wife by force: a very wicked deed in the eyes of the Eldar.\\\"

And I doubt that the man who murdered his wife while trying to poison his son was held up by Tolkien as a moral paragon. Also bear in mind the context of this sentence is a paragraph describing the ways in which some Dark Elves were less than morally upstanding, going on to cite Maeglin and Saeros.

Of your recollection that elves are incapable of committing adultery or rape: do you remember at all where you read it? Possibly I own the book and can look it up. If you\\\'re thinking of \\\"Laws and Customs,\\\" I\\\'m pretty sure you\\\'re mis-remembering (I\\\'m checking it now).

But regardless, Tolkien contradicts himself a lot in the unpublished/unfinished writings. The Characters page says right on it, contradiction doesn\\\'t mean you have to remove something. So if \\\"Laws and Customs\\\" or whatever contradicts \\\"Quendi and Eldar,\\\" \\\'\\\'it does not matter\\\'\\\'. This page doesn\\\'t establish any book as more {{Canon}} than another.

And I would be more surprised at those who \\\'\\\'aren\\\'t\\\'\\\' traumatized by incest slash fics. Why would you subject yourself to that? *shudder*

As for Maeglin, Celegorm, etc. I do not recall any passage stating they were planning rape. My \\\'\\\'interpretation\\\'\\\' is that Maeglin could have intended nothing else, since he expressely set out to murder Tuor and Eärendil, and Morgoth had offered to let him possess Idril. I don\\\'t know what else that could mean.

Maia Maiden, please see my quote from \\\"Quendi and Eldar.\\\" I will quote the whole sentence to make clear that I did not make this up, it is not Fanon, and accusing me (and others) of imagining it to \\\"flame\\\" Tolkien or whoever is rude. Claiming that Tolkien was wholly against this interpretation requires you to dismiss/ignore his actual statements as FanonDiscontinuity.

\\\"Quendi and Eldar\\\" (written Nov 1959 - Mar 1960 by Creator/JRRTolkien), \\\'\\\'History of Middle-earth\\\'\\\' Volume XII, \\\'\\\'The War of the Jewels\\\'\\\', p. 409 (hardcover, tradeback):

->\\\"Eöl found Irith, the sister of King Turgon, astray in the wild near his dwelling, and he took her to wife by force: a very wicked deed in the eyes of the Eldar.\\\"

And I doubt that the man who murdered his wife while trying to poison his son was held up by Tolkien as a moral paragon. Also bear in mind the context of this sentence is a paragraph describing the ways in which some Dark Elves were less than morally upstanding, going on to cite Maeglin and Saeros.

Of your recollection that elves are incapable of committing adultery or rape: do you remember at all where you read it? Possibly I own the book and can look it up. If you\\\'re thinking of \\\"Laws and Customs,\\\" I\\\'m pretty sure you\\\'re mis-remembering (I\\\'m checking it now).

But regardless, Tolkien contradicts himself a lot in the unpublished/unfinished writings. The Characters page says right on it, contradiction doesn\\\'t mean you have to remove something. So if \\\"Laws and Customs\\\" or whatever contradicts \\\"Quendi and Eldar,\\\" \\\'\\\'it does not matter\\\'\\\'. This page doesn\\\'t establish any book as more {{Canon}} than another, and removing things just because they clash with your \\\'\\\'personal\\\'\\\' {{Fanon}} isn\\\'t OK.

As for Maeglin, Celegorm, etc. I do not recall any passage stating they were planning rape. My interpretation is that Maeglin could have intended nothing else, since he expressely set out to murder Tuor and Eärendil, and Morgoth had offered to let him possess Idril. I don\\\'t know what else that could mean.

Maia Maiden, please see my quote from \\\"Quendi and Eldar.\\\" I will quote the whole sentence to make clear that I did not make this up, it is not Fanon, and accusing me (and others) of imagining it to \\\"flame\\\" Tolkien or whoever is rude. Claiming that Tolkien was wholly against this interpretation requires you to dismiss/ignore his actual statements as FanonDiscontinuity.

\\\"Quendi and Eldar\\\" (written Nov 1959 - Mar 1960 by Creator/JRRTolkien), \\\'\\\'History of Middle-earth\\\'\\\' Volume XII, \\\'\\\'The War of the Jewels\\\'\\\', p. 409 (hardcover, tradeback):

->\\\"Eöl found Irith, the sister of King Turgon, astray in the wild near his dwelling, and he took her to wife by force: a very wicked deed in the eyes of the Eldar.\\\"

And I doubt that the man who murdered his wife while trying to poison his son was held up by Tolkien as a moral paragon. Also bear in mind the context of this sentence is a paragraph describing the ways in which some Dark Elves were less than morally upstanding, going on to cite Maeglin and Saeros.

Of your recollection that elves are incapable of committing adultery or rape: do you remember at all where you read it? Possibly I own the book and can look it up. If you\\\'re thinking of \\\"Laws and Customs,\\\" I\\\'m pretty sure you\\\'re mis-remembering (I\\\'m checking it now).

But regardless, Tolkien contradicts himself a lot in the unpublished/unfinished writings. The Characters page says right on it, contradiction doesn\\\'t mean you have to remove something. So if \\\"Laws and Customs\\\" or whatever contradicts \\\"Quendi and Eldar,\\\" \\\'\\\'it does not matter\\\'\\\'. This page doesn\\\'t establish any book as more {{Canon}} than another, and removing things just because they clash with your \\\'\\\'personal\\\'\\\' {{Fanon}} isn\\\'t OK.

As for Maeglin, Celegorm, etc. I do not recall any passage stating they were planning rape. My interpretation is that Maeglin could have intended nothing else, since he expressely set out to murder Tuor and Earendil, and Morgoth had offered to let him possess Idril. I don\\\'t know what else that could mean.

Maia Maiden, please see my quote from \\\"Quendi and Eldar.\\\" I will quote the whole sentence to make clear that I did not make this up, it is not Fanon, and accusing me (and others) of imagining it to \\\"flame\\\" Tolkien or whoever is rude. Claiming that Tolkien was wholly against this interpretation requires you to dismiss/ignore his actual statements as FanonDiscontinuity.

\\\"Quendi and Eldar\\\" (written Nov 1959 - Mar 1960 by Creator/JRRTolkien), \\\'\\\'History of Middle-earth\\\'\\\' Volume XII, \\\'\\\'The War of the Jewels\\\'\\\', p. 409 (hardcover, tradeback):

->\\\"Eöl found Irith, the sister of King Turgon, astray in the wild near his dwelling, and he took her to wife by force: a very wicked deed in the eyes of the Eldar.\\\"

And I doubt that the man who murdered his wife while trying to poison his son was held up by Tolkien as a moral paragon. Also bear in mind the context of this sentence is a paragraph describing the ways in which some Dark Elves were less than morally upstanding, going on to cite Maeglin and Saeros.

Of your recollection that elves are incapable of committing adultery or rape: do you remember at all where you read it? Possibly I own the book and can look it up. If you\\\'re thinking of \\\"Laws and Customs,\\\" I\\\'m pretty sure you\\\'re mis-remembering (I\\\'m checking it now).

But regardless, Tolkien contradicts himself a lot in the unpublished/unfinished writings. The Characters page says right on it, contradiction doesn\\\'t mean you have to remove something. So if \\\"Laws and Customs\\\" or whatever contradicts \\\"Quendi and Eldar,\\\" \\\'\\\'it does not matter\\\'\\\'. This page doesn\\\'t establish any book as more {{Canon}} than another, and removing things just because they clash with your \\\'\\\'personal\\\'\\\' {{Fanon}} isn\\\'t OK.

Maia Maiden, please see my quote from \\\"Quendi and Eldar.\\\" I will quote the whole sentence to make clear that I did not make this up, it is not Fanon, and accusing me (and others) of imagining it to \\\"flame\\\" Tolkien or whoever is rude. Claiming that Tolkien was wholly against this interpretation requires you to dismiss/ignore his actual statements as FanonDiscontinuity.

\\\"Quendi and Eldar\\\" (written Nov 1959 - Mar 1960 by Creator/JRRTolkien), \\\'\\\'History of Middle-earth\\\'\\\' Volume XII, \\\'\\\'The War of the Jewels\\\'\\\', p. 409 (hardcover, tradeback):

->\\\"Eöl found Irith, the sister of King Turgon, astray in the wild near his dwelling, and he took her to wife by force: a very wicked deed in the eyes of the Eldar.\\\"

And I doubt that the man who murdered his wife while trying to poison his son was held up by Tolkien as a moral paragon. Also bear in mind the context of this sentence is a paragraph describing the ways in which some Dark Elves were less than morally upstanding, going on to cite Maeglin and Saeros.

As for your recollection that elves are incapable of committing adultery or rape, please cite where you read it. Possibly I own the book and can look it up. If you\\\'re thinking of \\\"Laws and Customs,\\\" I\\\'m pretty sure you\\\'re mis-remembering (I\\\'m reading it now).

But regardless, Tolkien contradicts himself a lot in the unpublished/unfinished writings. The Characters page says right on it, contradiction doesn\\\'t mean you have to remove something. So if \\\"Laws and Customs\\\" or whatever contradicts \\\"Quendi and Eldar,\\\" \\\'\\\'it does not matter\\\'\\\'. This page doesn\\\'t establish any book as more {{Canon}} than another, and removing things just because they clash with your \\\'\\\'personal\\\'\\\' {{Fanon}} isn\\\'t OK.

Maia Maiden, please see my quote from \\\"Quendi and Eldar.\\\" I will quote the whole sentence to make clear that I did not make this up, it is not Fanon, and accusing me (and others) of imagining it to \\\"flame\\\" Tolkien or whoever is rude. Claiming that Tolkien was wholly against this interpretation requires you to dismiss/ignore his actual statements as FanonDiscontinuity.