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[011] TrevMUN Current Version
Changed line(s) 1 from:
--> \'\'\
to:
--> \\\'\\\'\\\"This is a rather hollow accusation, because you\\\'re saying that it\\\'s not what exactly I said, and is specifically something I didn\\\'t.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Then what \\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\' you mean, if you didn\\\'t mean server population? Did you mean that a game can only be considered an MMO if a few hundred players or so can amass in the same place, no matter where? If you meant that, then that would rule out any MMO that uses instanced content, because it would be impossible to amass that many players anywhere anytime.

If you meant that a game can only be called an [=MMO=] if several hundred people can even gather in a place, then you could have to include both \\\'\\\'PSO\\\'\\\' and \\\'\\\'PSU\\\'\\\'. Those example screenshots I postee clearly demonstrate that PSU can handle such large gatherings, and from my time playing PSO, I saw similar gatherings in public lobbies.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"I\\\'m really perplexed as to where, exactly, you managed to [[AssPull pull that one from]], because it\\\'s not related to what I said in the least.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Interesting that you act all proper and polite, feigning shock at perceived hostility, claiming that you\\\'d \\\"like to stay away from personal attacks\\\" while potholing {{Take That}}s in your next reply.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"Being that the only examples of more than four people (six in PhantasyStarUniverse) playing together happen to be in 3D chat lobbies with no real gameplay, I\\\'d say that\\\'s kind of a flimsy pseudo-technicality to try and rely on for your argument, being that these are social constructs to allow players the ability to organize actual gameplay.\\\"\\\'\\\'

So what if you can only party up with four people at once on PSO, and six in PSU? How does this make it different from any other game listed on this article where you can only play with a limited amount of people in certain sections of the game? Even in the \\\"classic\\\" examples of [=MMOs=], the amount of characters that can play together as a party are limited.

Again, you\\\'re going on and on about \\\"pseudo-technicalities\\\" that you deem dismissable, acting as if the Phantasy Star games are some kind of black sheep to this index, when they are not.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"The history page you linked was just a fragment prior to the correction that the games are not actually MMORPGs, that had yet to be cleaned up.\\\"\\\'\\\'

It seems it was a mistake to even mention Wikipedia, because I noticed you immediately went to that article and removed any reference to Phantasy Star Online. This behavior, combined with your repeatedly labeling your personal views as \\\"correct\\\" tells me that you\\\'re not only a WikipediaUpdater but an OrwellianEditor to boot; I would point out that some of the articles you linked to do mention that PSO is an MMORPG, but you\\\'re probably going to remove any reference on those as well.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"Wikipedia doesn\\\'t actually classify any of the PhantasyStar games as [=MMOs=] though - you may wish to read [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Online their]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Universe individual]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Zero articles]] and their discussions for some insight.\\\"\\\'\\\'

On the other hand, [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Loathing The Phantasy Star games]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PangYa are not the only]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Arms_%28video_game%29 games not listed]] as [=MMOs=] by Wikipedians on their specific articles, but are listed as [=MMOs=] by TV Tropes. There are [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Fighter_Online certain other]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights games that]] have online mechanics similar to the Phantasy Star games (or are dual single/multiplayer games as well), and yet are billed as [=MMOs=] by the categorization at the end of their articles. I\\\'m not prepared to go try and visit \\\'\\\'every single\\\'\\\' article to see where and how Wikipedians and tropers disagree or agree on what games qualify as MassivelyMultiplayer, but I think I\\\'ve made my point clear enough.

Though seeing what you\\\'ve done already, I\\\'m half-expecting you to go \\\"clean up\\\" those articles as well, just to \\\"prove\\\" yourself \\\"correct.\\\"

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"For the original Sega advertisement for PhantasyStarOnline, it\\\'s worth noting that it doesn\\\'t actually make any mention of the genre-defining features of MMORPGs - it touts its accessibility to the world, online gameplay, and automatically-translated communication features, but it makes no mention of the gameplay actually being \\\"massive\\\" by any means.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Only by your personal definition. As I mentioned, a persistent world is one of the features commonly viewed as a criterion in order for a game to be considered an MMORPG. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_game While we\\\'re linking Wikipedia articles to each other, I might as well link this]].

Let\\\'s see. Character progression? Yep, that happens in PSO, PSU, and Zero. Social interaction? Definitely there in all three, though PSU exhibits it the most--and this involves one of the things you dismissed as a \\\"pseudo-technicality.\\\" Culture? The Phantasy Star games line up fairly well with that. System architecture? That\\\'s pretty much how all the Phantasy Star games work. In fact, it\\\'s \\\'\\\'precisely\\\'\\\' what the PSO advertisement was hyping so much, aside from its persistence.

I\\\'m going to say it again--your attempting to remove a few games from this index and label them as something they are not, when they clearly belong on this article as much as many of the other titles which don\\\'t fit your personal definition, is not cool.

So, let\\\'s review what I\\\'m trying to say to you.

* \\\'\\\'\\\'1:\\\'\\\'\\\' The most important thing of all--you\\\'re trying to impose your personal views on the PhantasyStar articles and this index. TV Tropes clearly allows for a number of games that doesn\\\'t fit \\\'\\\'your\\\'\\\' personal definition of what an MMO is, so your repeated attempts to impose your personal definition is not right.
* \\\'\\\'\\\'2:\\\'\\\'\\\' Your personal definition doesn\\\'t even line up with the criteria commonly accepted as qualities of [=MMOs=], even though you\\\'ve repeatedly called your personal definition the \\\"correct\\\" one. You should accept that your personal definition is just that--personal, and not try to present it as the One True Definition.
* \\\'\\\'\\\'3:\\\'\\\'\\\' In my previous reply, I gave you \\\'\\\'my\\\'\\\' personal definition (which I do not claim is that of TV Tropes or the consensus) at your request--but this is separate from points 1 and 2, and I certainly don\\\'t expect you to agree with me on this one.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
--> \'\'\
to:
--> \\\'\\\'\\\"This is a rather hollow accusation, because you\\\'re saying that it\\\'s not what exactly I said, and is specifically something I didn\\\'t.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Then what \\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\' you mean, if you didn\\\'t mean server population? Did you mean that a game can only be considered an MMO if a few hundred players or so can amass in the same place, no matter where? If you meant that, then that would rule out any MMO that uses instanced content, because it would be impossible to amass that many players anywhere anytime.

If you meant that a game can only be called an [=MMO=] if several hundred people can even gather in a place, then you could have to include both \\\'\\\'PSO\\\'\\\' and \\\'\\\'PSU\\\'\\\'. Those example screenshots I postee clearly demonstrate that PSU can handle such large gatherings, and from my time playing PSO, I saw similar gatherings in public lobbies.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"I\\\'m really perplexed as to where, exactly, you managed to [[AssPull pull that one from]], because it\\\'s not related to what I said in the least.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Interesting that you act all proper and polite, feigning shock at perceived hostility, claiming that you\\\'d \\\"like to stay away from personal attacks\\\" while potholing {{Take That}}s in your next reply.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"Being that the only examples of more than four people (six in PhantasyStarUniverse) playing together happen to be in 3D chat lobbies with no real gameplay, I\\\'d say that\\\'s kind of a flimsy pseudo-technicality to try and rely on for your argument, being that these are social constructs to allow players the ability to organize actual gameplay.\\\"\\\'\\\'

So what if you can only party up with four people at once on PSO, and six in PSU? How does this make it different from any other game listed on this article where you can only play with a limited amount of people in certain sections of the game? Even in the \\\"classic\\\" examples of [=MMOs=], the amount of characters that can play together as a party are limited.

Again, you\\\'re going on and on about \\\"pseudo-technicalities\\\" that you deem dismissable, acting as if the Phantasy Star games are some kind of black sheep to this index, when they are not.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"The history page you linked was just a fragment prior to the correction that the games are not actually MMORPGs, that had yet to be cleaned up.\\\"\\\'\\\'

It seems it was a mistake to even mention Wikipedia, because I noticed you immediately went to that article and removed any reference to Phantasy Star Online. This behavior, combined with your repeatedly labeling your personal views as \\\"correct\\\" tells me that you\\\'re not only a WikipediaUpdater but an OrwellianEditor to boot; I would point out that some of the articles you linked to do mention that PSO is an MMORPG, but you\\\'re probably going to remove any reference on those as well.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"Wikipedia doesn\\\'t actually classify any of the PhantasyStar games as [=MMOs=] though - you may wish to read [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Online their]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Universe individual]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Zero articles]] and their discussions for some insight.\\\"\\\'\\\'

On the other hand, [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Loathing The Phantasy Star games]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PangYa are not the only]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Arms_%28video_game%29 games not listed]] as [=MMOs=] by Wikipedians on their specific articles, but are listed as [=MMOs=] by TV Tropes. There are [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Fighter_Online certain other]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights games that]] have online mechanics similar to the Phantasy Star games (or are dual single/multiplayer games as well), and yet are billed as [=MMOs=] by the categorization at the end of their articles. I\\\'m not prepared to go try and visit \\\'\\\'every single\\\'\\\' article to see where and how Wikipedians and tropers disagree or agree on what games qualify as MassivelyMultiplayer, but I think I\\\'ve made my point clear enough.

Though seeing what you\\\'ve done already, I\\\'m half-expecting you to go \\\"clean up\\\" those articles as well, just to \\\"prove\\\" yourself \\\"correct.\\\"

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"For the original Sega advertisement for PhantasyStarOnline, it\\\'s worth noting that it doesn\\\'t actually make any mention of the genre-defining features of MMORPGs - it touts its accessibility to the world, online gameplay, and automatically-translated communication features, but it makes no mention of the gameplay actually being \\\"massive\\\" by any means.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Only by your personal definition. As I mentioned, a persistent world is one of the features commonly viewed as a criterion in order for a game to be considered an MMORPG. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_game While we\\\'re linking Wikipedia articles to each other, I might as well link this]].

Let\\\'s see. Character progression? Yep, that happens in PSO, PSU, and Zero. Social interaction? Definitely there in all three, though PSU exhibits it the most--and this involves one of the things you dismissed as a \\\"pseudo-technicality.\\\" Culture? The Phantasy Star games line up fairly well with that. System architecture? That\\\'s pretty much how all the Phantasy Star games work. These criteria are \\\'\\\'precisely\\\'\\\' what the PSO advertisement was hyping so much.

I\\\'m going to say it again--your attempting to remove a few games from this index and label them as something they are not, when they clearly belong on this article as much as many of the other titles which don\\\'t fit your personal definition, is not cool.

So, let\\\'s review what I\\\'m trying to say to you.

* \\\'\\\'\\\'1:\\\'\\\'\\\' The most important thing of all--you\\\'re trying to impose your personal views on the PhantasyStar articles and this index. TV Tropes clearly allows for a number of games that doesn\\\'t fit \\\'\\\'your\\\'\\\' personal definition of what an MMO is, so your repeated attempts to impose your personal definition is not right.
* \\\'\\\'\\\'2:\\\'\\\'\\\' Your personal definition doesn\\\'t even line up with the criteria commonly accepted as qualities of [=MMOs=], even though you\\\'ve repeatedly called your personal definition the \\\"correct\\\" one. You should accept that your personal definition is just that--personal, and not try to present it as the One True Definition.
* \\\'\\\'\\\'3:\\\'\\\'\\\' In my previous reply, I gave you \\\'\\\'my\\\'\\\' personal definition (which I do not claim is that of TV Tropes or the consensus) at your request--but this is separate from points 1 and 2, and I certainly don\\\'t expect you to agree with me on this one.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
--> \'\'\
to:
--> \\\'\\\'\\\"This is a rather hollow accusation, because you\\\'re saying that it\\\'s not what exactly I said, and is specifically something I didn\\\'t.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Then what \\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\' you mean, if you didn\\\'t mean server population? Did you mean that a game can only be considered an MMO if a few hundred players or so can amass in the same place, no matter where? If you meant that, then that would rule out any MMO that uses instanced content, because it would be impossible to amass that many players anywhere anytime.

If you meant that a game can only be called an [=MMO=] if several hundred people can even gather in a place, then you could have to include both \\\'\\\'PSO\\\'\\\' and \\\'\\\'PSU\\\'\\\'. Those example screenshots I postee clearly demonstrate that PSU can handle such large gatherings, and from my time playing PSO, I saw similar gatherings in public lobbies.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"I\\\'m really perplexed as to where, exactly, you managed to [[AssPull pull that one from]], because it\\\'s not related to what I said in the least.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Interesting that you act all proper and polite, feigning shock at perceived hostility, claiming that you\\\'d \\\"like to stay away from personal attacks\\\" while potholing {{Take That}}s in your next reply.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"Being that the only examples of more than four people (six in PhantasyStarUniverse) playing together happen to be in 3D chat lobbies with no real gameplay, I\\\'d say that\\\'s kind of a flimsy pseudo-technicality to try and rely on for your argument, being that these are social constructs to allow players the ability to organize actual gameplay.\\\"\\\'\\\'

So what if you can only party up with four people at once on PSO, and six in PSU? How does this make it different from any other game listed on this article where you can only play with a limited amount of people in certain sections of the game? Even in the \\\"classic\\\" examples of [=MMOs=], the amount of characters that can play together as a party are limited.

Again, you\\\'re going on and on about \\\"pseudo-technicalities\\\" that you deem dismissable, acting as if the Phantasy Star games are some kind of black sheep to this index, when they are not.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"The history page you linked was just a fragment prior to the correction that the games are not actually MMORPGs, that had yet to be cleaned up.\\\"\\\'\\\'

It seems it was a mistake to even mention Wikipedia, because I noticed you immediately went to that article and removed any reference to Phantasy Star Online. This behavior, combined with your repeatedly labeling your personal views as \\\"correct\\\" tells me that you\\\'re not only a WikipediaUpdater but an OrwellianEditor to boot; I would point out that some of the articles you linked to do mention that PSO is an MMORPG, but you\\\'re probably going to remove any reference on those as well.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"Wikipedia doesn\\\'t actually classify any of the PhantasyStar games as [=MMOs=] though - you may wish to read [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Online their]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Universe individual]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Zero articles]] and their discussions for some insight.\\\"\\\'\\\'

On the other hand, [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Loathing The Phantasy Star games]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PangYa are not the only]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Arms_%28video_game%29 games not listed]] as [=MMOs=] by Wikipedians on their specific articles, but are listed as [=MMOs=] by TV Tropes. There are [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Fighter_Online certain other]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights games that]] have online mechanics similar to the Phantasy Star games (or are dual single/multiplayer games as well), and yet are billed as [=MMOs=] by the categorization at the end of their articles. I\\\'m not prepared to go try and visit \\\'\\\'every single\\\'\\\' article to see if Wikipedians and tropers agree on what games qualify as MassivelyMultiplayer, but I think I\\\'ve made my point clear enough.

Though seeing what you\\\'ve done already, I\\\'m half-expecting you to go \\\"clean up\\\" those articles as well, just to \\\"prove\\\" yourself \\\"correct.\\\"

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"For the original Sega advertisement for PhantasyStarOnline, it\\\'s worth noting that it doesn\\\'t actually make any mention of the genre-defining features of MMORPGs - it touts its accessibility to the world, online gameplay, and automatically-translated communication features, but it makes no mention of the gameplay actually being \\\"massive\\\" by any means.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Only by your personal definition. As I mentioned, a persistent world is one of the features commonly viewed as a criterion in order for a game to be considered an MMORPG. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_game While we\\\'re linking Wikipedia articles to each other, I might as well link this]].

Let\\\'s see. Character progression? Yep, that happens in PSO, PSU, and Zero. Social interaction? Definitely there in all three, though PSU exhibits it the most--and this involves one of the things you dismissed as a \\\"pseudo-technicality.\\\" Culture? The Phantasy Star games line up fairly well with that. System architecture? That\\\'s pretty much how all the Phantasy Star games work. These criteria are \\\'\\\'precisely\\\'\\\' what the PSO advertisement was hyping so much.

I\\\'m going to say it again--your attempting to remove a few games from this index and label them as something they are not, when they clearly belong on this article as much as many of the other titles which don\\\'t fit your personal definition, is not cool.

So, let\\\'s review what I\\\'m trying to say to you.

* \\\'\\\'\\\'1:\\\'\\\'\\\' The most important thing of all--you\\\'re trying to impose your personal views on the PhantasyStar articles and this index. TV Tropes clearly allows for a number of games that doesn\\\'t fit \\\'\\\'your\\\'\\\' personal definition of what an MMO is, so your repeated attempts to impose your personal definition is not right.
* \\\'\\\'\\\'2:\\\'\\\'\\\' Your personal definition doesn\\\'t even line up with the criteria commonly accepted as qualities of [=MMOs=], even though you\\\'ve repeatedly called your personal definition the \\\"correct\\\" one. You should accept that your personal definition is just that--personal, and not try to present it as the One True Definition.
* \\\'\\\'\\\'3:\\\'\\\'\\\' In my previous reply, I gave you \\\'\\\'my\\\'\\\' personal definition (which I do not claim is that of TV Tropes or the consensus) at your request--but this is separate from points 1 and 2, and I certainly don\\\'t expect you to agree with me on this one.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
--> \'\'\
to:
--> \\\'\\\'\\\"This is a rather hollow accusation, because you\\\'re saying that it\\\'s not what exactly I said, and is specifically something I didn\\\'t.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Then what \\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\' you mean, if you didn\\\'t mean server population? Did you mean that a game can only be considered an MMO if a few hundred players or so can amass in the same place, no matter where? If you meant that, then that would rule out any MMO that uses instanced content, because it would be impossible to amass that many players anywhere anytime.

If you meant that a game can only be called an [=MMO=] if several hundred people can even gather in a place, then you could have to include both \\\'\\\'PSO\\\'\\\' and \\\'\\\'PSU\\\'\\\'. Those example screenshots I postee clearly demonstrate that PSU can handle such large gatherings, and from my time playing PSO, I saw similar gatherings in public lobbies.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"I\\\'m really perplexed as to where, exactly, you managed to [[AssPull pull that one from]], because it\\\'s not related to what I said in the least.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Interesting that you act all proper and polite, feigning shock at perceived hostility, claiming that you\\\'d \\\"like to stay away from personal attacks\\\" while potholing {{Take That}}s in your next reply.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"Being that the only examples of more than four people (six in PhantasyStarUniverse) playing together happen to be in 3D chat lobbies with no real gameplay, I\\\'d say that\\\'s kind of a flimsy pseudo-technicality to try and rely on for your argument, being that these are social constructs to allow players the ability to organize actual gameplay.\\\"\\\'\\\'

So what if you can only party up with four people at once on PSO, and six in PSU? How does this make it different from any other game listed on this article where you can only play with a limited amount of people in certain sections of the game? Even in the \\\"classic\\\" examples of [=MMOs=], the amount of characters that can play together as a party are limited.

Again, you\\\'re going on and on about \\\"pseudo-technicalities\\\" that you deem dismissable, acting as if the Phantasy Star games are some kind of black sheep to this index, when they are not.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"The history page you linked was just a fragment prior to the correction that the games are not actually MMORPGs, that had yet to be cleaned up.\\\"\\\'\\\'

It seems it was a mistake to even mention Wikipedia, because I noticed you immediately went to that article and removed any reference to Phantasy Star Online. Your behavior and repeatedly labeling your personal views \\\"correct\\\" tells me that you\\\'re not only a WikipediaUpdater but an OrwellianEditor to boot; I would point out that some of the articles you linked to do mention that PSO is an MMORPG, but you\\\'re probably going to remove any reference on those as well.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"Wikipedia doesn\\\'t actually classify any of the PhantasyStar games as [=MMOs=] though - you may wish to read [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Online their]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Universe individual]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Zero articles]] and their discussions for some insight.\\\"\\\'\\\'

On the other hand, [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Loathing The Phantasy Star games]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PangYa are not the only]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Arms_%28video_game%29 games not listed]] as [=MMOs=] by Wikipedians on their specific articles, but are listed as [=MMOs=] by TV Tropes. There are [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Fighter_Online certain other]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights games that]] have online mechanics similar to the Phantasy Star games (or are dual single/multiplayer games as well), and yet are billed as [=MMOs=] by the categorization at the end of their articles. I\\\'m not prepared to go try and visit \\\'\\\'every single\\\'\\\' article to see if Wikipedians and tropers agree on what games qualify as MassivelyMultiplayer, but I think I\\\'ve made my point clear enough.

Though seeing what you\\\'ve done already, I\\\'m half-expecting you to go \\\"clean up\\\" those articles as well, just to \\\"prove\\\" yourself \\\"correct.\\\"

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"For the original Sega advertisement for PhantasyStarOnline, it\\\'s worth noting that it doesn\\\'t actually make any mention of the genre-defining features of MMORPGs - it touts its accessibility to the world, online gameplay, and automatically-translated communication features, but it makes no mention of the gameplay actually being \\\"massive\\\" by any means.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Only by your personal definition. As I mentioned, a persistent world is one of the features commonly viewed as a criterion in order for a game to be considered an MMORPG. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_game While we\\\'re linking Wikipedia articles to each other, I might as well link this]].

Let\\\'s see. Character progression? Yep, that happens in PSO, PSU, and Zero. Social interaction? Definitely there in all three, though PSU exhibits it the most--and this involves one of the things you dismissed as a \\\"pseudo-technicality.\\\" Culture? The Phantasy Star games line up fairly well with that. System architecture? That\\\'s pretty much how all the Phantasy Star games work. These criteria are \\\'\\\'precisely\\\'\\\' what the PSO advertisement was hyping so much.

I\\\'m going to say it again--your attempting to remove a few games from this index and label them as something they are not, when they clearly belong on this article as much as many of the other titles which don\\\'t fit your personal definition, is not cool.

So, let\\\'s review what I\\\'m trying to say to you.

* \\\'\\\'\\\'1:\\\'\\\'\\\' The most important thing of all--you\\\'re trying to impose your personal views on the PhantasyStar articles and this index. TV Tropes clearly allows for a number of games that doesn\\\'t fit \\\'\\\'your\\\'\\\' personal definition of what an MMO is, so your repeated attempts to impose your personal definition is not right.
* \\\'\\\'\\\'2:\\\'\\\'\\\' Your personal definition doesn\\\'t even line up with the criteria commonly accepted as qualities of [=MMOs=], even though you\\\'ve repeatedly called your personal definition the \\\"correct\\\" one. You should accept that your personal definition is just that--personal, and not try to present it as the One True Definition.
* \\\'\\\'\\\'3:\\\'\\\'\\\' In my previous reply, I gave you \\\'\\\'my\\\'\\\' personal definition (which I do not claim is that of TV Tropes or the consensus) at your request--but this is separate from points 1 and 2, and I certainly don\\\'t expect you to agree with me on this one.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
--> \'\'\
to:
--> \\\'\\\'\\\"This is a rather hollow accusation, because you\\\'re saying that it\\\'s not what exactly I said, and is specifically something I didn\\\'t.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Then what \\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\' you mean, if you didn\\\'t mean server population? Did you mean that a game can only be considered an MMO if a few hundred players or so can amass in the same place, no matter where? If you meant that, then that would rule out any MMO that uses instanced content, because it would be impossible to amass that many players anywhere anytime.

If you meant that a game can only be called an [=MMO=] if several hundred people can even gather in a place, then you could have to include both \\\'\\\'PSO\\\'\\\' and \\\'\\\'PSU\\\'\\\'. Those example screenshots I postee clearly demonstrate that PSU can handle such large gatherings, and from my time playing PSO, I saw similar gatherings in public lobbies.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"I\\\'m really perplexed as to where, exactly, you managed to [[AssPull pull that one from]], because it\\\'s not related to what I said in the least.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Interesting that you act all proper and polite, feigning shock at perceived hostility, claiming that you\\\'d \\\"like to stay away from personal attacks\\\" while potholing {{Take That}}s in your next reply.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"Being that the only examples of more than four people (six in PhantasyStarUniverse) playing together happen to be in 3D chat lobbies with no real gameplay, I\\\'d say that\\\'s kind of a flimsy pseudo-technicality to try and rely on for your argument, being that these are social constructs to allow players the ability to organize actual gameplay.\\\"\\\'\\\'

So what if you can only party up with four people at once on PSO, and six in PSU? How does this make it different from any other game listed on this article where you can only play with a limited amount of people in certain sections of the game? Even in the \\\"classic\\\" examples of [=MMOs=], the amount of characters that can play together as a party are limited.

Again, you\\\'re going on and on about \\\"pseudo-technicalities\\\" that you deem dismissable, acting as if the Phantasy Star games are some kind of black sheep to this index, when they are not.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"The history page you linked was just a fragment prior to the correction that the games are not actually MMORPGs, that had yet to be cleaned up.\\\"\\\'\\\'

It seems it was a mistake to even mention Wikipedia, because I noticed you immediately went to that article and removed any reference to Phantasy Star Online. Your behavior and repeatedly labeling your personal views \\\"correct\\\" tells me that you\\\'re not only a WikipediaUpdater but an OrwellianEditor to boot; I would point out that some of the articles you linked to do mention that PSO is an MMORPG, but you\\\'re probably going to remove any reference on those as well.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"Wikipedia doesn\\\'t actually classify any of the PhantasyStar games as [=MMOs=] though - you may wish to read [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Online their]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Universe individual]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Zero articles]] and their discussions for some insight.\\\"\\\'\\\'

On the other hand, [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Loathing The Phantasy Star games]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PangYa are not the only]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Arms_%28video_game%29 games not listed]] as [=MMOs=] by Wikipedians on their specific articles, but are listed as [=MMOs=] by TV Tropes. There are [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Fighter_Online certain other]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights games that]] have online mechanics similar to the Phantasy Star games (or are dual single/multiplayer games as well), and yet are billed as [=MMOs=] by the categorization at the end of their articles. I\\\'m not prepared to go try and visit \\\'\\\'every single\\\'\\\' article to see if Wikipedians and tropers agree on what games qualify as MassivelyMultiplayer, but I think I\\\'ve made my point clear enough.

Though seeing what you\\\'ve done already, I\\\'m half-expecting you to go \\\"clean up\\\" those articles as well, just to \\\"prove\\\" yourself \\\"correct.\\\"

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"For the original Sega advertisement for PhantasyStarOnline, it\\\'s worth noting that it doesn\\\'t actually make any mention of the genre-defining features of MMORPGs - it touts its accessibility to the world, online gameplay, and automatically-translated communication features, but it makes no mention of the gameplay actually being \\\"massive\\\" by any means.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Only by your personal definition. As I mentioned, a persistent world is one of the features commonly viewed as a criterion in order for a game to be considered an MMORPG. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_game While we\\\'re linking Wikipedia articles to each other, I might as well link this]].

Let\\\'s see. Progression? Yep, that happens PSO, PSU, and Zero. Social interaction? Definitely there in all three, PSU the most--and this is one of the things you turned your nose up at, dismissing as a \\\"pseudo-technicality.\\\" Culture? The Phantasy Star games line up fairly well with that. System architecture? That\\\'s pretty much how all the Phantasy Star games work, and the PSO advertisement makes a huge deal about this.

I\\\'m going to say it again--your attempting to remove a few games from this index and label them as something they are not, when they clearly belong on this article as much as many of the other titles which don\\\'t fit your personal definition, is not cool.

So, let\\\'s review what I\\\'m trying to say to you.

* \\\'\\\'\\\'1:\\\'\\\'\\\' The most important thing of all--you\\\'re trying to impose your personal views on the PhantasyStar articles and this index. TV Tropes clearly allows for a number of games that doesn\\\'t fit \\\'\\\'your\\\'\\\' personal definition of what an MMO is, so your repeated attempts to impose your personal definition is not right.
* \\\'\\\'\\\'2:\\\'\\\'\\\' Your personal definition doesn\\\'t even line up with the criteria commonly accepted as qualities of [=MMOs=], even though you\\\'ve repeatedly called your personal definition the \\\"correct\\\" one. You should accept that your personal definition is just that--personal, and not try to present it as the One True Definition.
* \\\'\\\'\\\'3:\\\'\\\'\\\' In my previous reply, I gave you \\\'\\\'my\\\'\\\' personal definition (which I do not claim is that of TV Tropes or the consensus) at your request--but this is separate from points 1 and 2, and I certainly don\\\'t expect you to agree with me on this one.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
--> \'\'\
to:
--> \\\'\\\'\\\"This is a rather hollow accusation, because you\\\'re saying that it\\\'s not what exactly I said, and is specifically something I didn\\\'t.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Then what \\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\' you mean, if you didn\\\'t mean server population? Did you mean that a game can only be considered an MMO if a few hundred players or so can amass in the same place, no matter where? If you meant that, then that would rule out any MMO that uses instanced content, because it would be impossible to amass that many players anywhere anytime.

If you meant that a game can only be called an [=MMO=] if several hundred people can even gather in a place, then you could have to include both \\\'\\\'PSO\\\'\\\' and \\\'\\\'PSU\\\'\\\'. Those example screenshots I postee clearly demonstrate that PSU can handle such large gatherings, and from my time playing PSO, I saw similar gatherings in public lobbies.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"I\\\'m really perplexed as to where, exactly, you managed to [[AssPull pull that one from]], because it\\\'s not related to what I said in the least.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Interesting that you act all proper and polite, feigning shock at perceived hostility, claiming that you\\\'d \\\"like to stay away from personal attacks\\\" while potholing {{Take That}}s in your next reply.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"Being that the only examples of more than four people (six in PhantasyStarUniverse) playing together happen to be in 3D chat lobbies with no real gameplay, I\\\'d say that\\\'s kind of a flimsy pseudo-technicality to try and rely on for your argument, being that these are social constructs to allow players the ability to organize actual gameplay.\\\"\\\'\\\'

So what if you can only party up with four people at once on PSO, and six in PSU? How does this make it different from any other game listed on this article where you can only play with a limited amount of people in certain sections of the game? Even in the \\\"classic\\\" examples of [=MMOs=], the amount of characters that can play together as a party are limited.

Again, you\\\'re going on and on about \\\"pseudo-technicalities\\\" that you deem dismissable, acting as if the Phantasy Star games are some kind of black sheep to this index, when they are not.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"The history page you linked was just a fragment prior to the correction that the games are not actually MMORPGs, that had yet to be cleaned up.\\\"\\\'\\\'

It seems it was a mistake to even mention Wikipedia, because I noticed you immediately went to that article and removed any reference to Phantasy Star Online. Your behavior and repeatedly labeling your personal views \\\"correct\\\" tells me that you\\\'re not only a WikipediaUpdater but an OrwellianEditor to boot; I would point out that some of the articles you linked to do mention that PSO is an MMORPG, but you\\\'re probably going to remove any reference on those as well.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"Wikipedia doesn\\\'t actually classify any of the PhantasyStar games as [=MMOs=] though - you may wish to read [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Online their]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Universe individual]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Zero articles]] and their discussions for some insight.\\\"\\\'\\\'

On the other hand, [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Loathing The Phantasy Star games]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PangYa are not the only]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Arms_%28video_game%29 games not listed]] as [=MMOs=] by Wikipedians on their specific articles, but are listed as [=MMOs=] by TV Tropes. There are [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Fighter_Online certain other]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights games that]] have online mechanics similar to the Phantasy Star games (or are dual single/multiplayer games as well), and yet are billed as [=MMOs=] by the categorization at the end of their articles. I\\\'m not prepared to go try and visit \\\'\\\'every single\\\'\\\' article to see if Wikipedians and tropers agree on what games qualify as MassivelyMultiplayer, but I think I\\\'ve made my point clear enough.

Though seeing what you\\\'ve done already, I\\\'m half-expecting you to go \\\"clean up\\\" those articles as well, just to \\\"prove\\\" yourself \\\"correct.\\\"

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"For the original Sega advertisement for PhantasyStarOnline, it\\\'s worth noting that it doesn\\\'t actually make any mention of the genre-defining features of MMORPGs - it touts its accessibility to the world, online gameplay, and automatically-translated communication features, but it makes no mention of the gameplay actually being \\\"massive\\\" by any means.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Only by your personal definition. As I mentioned, persistence is one of the features commonly viewed as criterion for a game to be considered an MMORPG. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_game While we\\\'re linking Wikipedia articles to each other, I might as well link this]].

Let\\\'s see. Progression? Yep, that happens PSO, PSU, and Zero. Social interaction? Definitely there in all three, PSU the most--and this is one of the things you turned your nose up at, dismissing as a \\\"pseudo-technicality.\\\" Culture? The Phantasy Star games line up fairly well with that. System architecture? That\\\'s pretty much how all the Phantasy Star games work, and the PSO advertisement makes a huge deal about this.

I\\\'m going to say it again--your attempting to remove a few games from this index and label them as something they are not, when they clearly belong on this article as much as many of the other titles which don\\\'t fit your personal definition, is not cool.

So, let\\\'s review what I\\\'m trying to say to you.

* \\\'\\\'\\\'1:\\\'\\\'\\\' The most important thing of all--you\\\'re trying to impose your personal views on the PhantasyStar articles and this index. TV Tropes clearly allows for a number of games that doesn\\\'t fit \\\'\\\'your\\\'\\\' personal definition of what an MMO is, so your repeated attempts to impose your personal definition is not right.
* \\\'\\\'\\\'2:\\\'\\\'\\\' Your personal definition doesn\\\'t even line up with the criteria commonly accepted as qualities of [=MMOs=], even though you\\\'ve repeatedly called your personal definition the \\\"correct\\\" one. You should accept that your personal definition is just that--personal, and not try to present it as the One True Definition.
* \\\'\\\'\\\'3:\\\'\\\'\\\' In my previous reply, I gave you \\\'\\\'my\\\'\\\' personal definition (which I do not claim is that of TV Tropes or the consensus) at your request--but this is separate from points 1 and 2, and I certainly don\\\'t expect you to agree with me on this one.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
--> \'\'\
to:
--> \\\'\\\'\\\"This is a rather hollow accusation, because you\\\'re saying that it\\\'s not what exactly I said, and is specifically something I didn\\\'t.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Then what \\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\' you mean, if you didn\\\'t mean server population? Did you mean that a game can only be considered an MMO if two hundred players can amass in the same place, no matter where? If you meant that, then that would rule out any MMO that uses instanced content, because it would be impossible to amass that many players in the same place.

If you meant that a game can only be called an [=MMO=] if several hundred people can even gather in a place, then you could have to include both \\\'\\\'PSO\\\'\\\' and \\\'\\\'PSU\\\'\\\'. Those example screenshots I postee clearly demonstrate that PSU can handle such large gatherings, and from my time playing PSO, I saw similar gatherings in public lobbies.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"I\\\'m really perplexed as to where, exactly, you managed to [[AssPull pull that one from]], because it\\\'s not related to what I said in the least.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Interesting that you act all proper and polite, feigning shock at perceived hostility, claiming that you\\\'d \\\"like to stay away from personal attacks\\\" while potholing {{Take That}}s in your next reply.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"Being that the only examples of more than four people (six in PhantasyStarUniverse) playing together happen to be in 3D chat lobbies with no real gameplay, I\\\'d say that\\\'s kind of a flimsy pseudo-technicality to try and rely on for your argument, being that these are social constructs to allow players the ability to organize actual gameplay.\\\"\\\'\\\'

So what if you can only party up with four people at once on PSO, and six in PSU? How does this make it different from any other game listed on this article where you can only play with a limited amount of people in certain sections of the game? Even in the \\\"classic\\\" examples of [=MMOs=], the amount of characters that can play together as a party are limited.

Again, you\\\'re going on and on about \\\"pseudo-technicalities\\\" that you deem dismissable, acting as if the Phantasy Star games are some kind of black sheep to this index, when they are not.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"The history page you linked was just a fragment prior to the correction that the games are not actually MMORPGs, that had yet to be cleaned up.\\\"\\\'\\\'

It seems it was a mistake to even mention Wikipedia, because I noticed you immediately went to that article and removed any reference to Phantasy Star Online. Your behavior and repeatedly labeling your personal views \\\"correct\\\" tells me that you\\\'re not only a WikipediaUpdater but an OrwellianEditor to boot; I would point out that some of the articles you linked to do mention that PSO is an MMORPG, but you\\\'re probably going to remove any reference on those as well.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"Wikipedia doesn\\\'t actually classify any of the PhantasyStar games as [=MMOs=] though - you may wish to read [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Online their]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Universe individual]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Zero articles]] and their discussions for some insight.\\\"\\\'\\\'

On the other hand, [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Loathing The Phantasy Star games]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PangYa are not the only]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Arms_%28video_game%29 games not listed]] as [=MMOs=] by Wikipedians on their specific articles, but are listed as [=MMOs=] by TV Tropes. There are [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Fighter_Online certain other]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights games that]] have online mechanics similar to the Phantasy Star games (or are dual single/multiplayer games as well), and yet are billed as [=MMOs=] by the categorization at the end of their articles. I\\\'m not prepared to go try and visit \\\'\\\'every single\\\'\\\' article to see if Wikipedians and tropers agree on what games qualify as MassivelyMultiplayer, but I think I\\\'ve made my point clear enough.

Though seeing what you\\\'ve done already, I\\\'m half-expecting you to go \\\"clean up\\\" those articles as well, just to \\\"prove\\\" yourself \\\"correct.\\\"

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"For the original Sega advertisement for PhantasyStarOnline, it\\\'s worth noting that it doesn\\\'t actually make any mention of the genre-defining features of MMORPGs - it touts its accessibility to the world, online gameplay, and automatically-translated communication features, but it makes no mention of the gameplay actually being \\\"massive\\\" by any means.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Only by your personal definition. As I mentioned, persistence is one of the features commonly viewed as criterion for a game to be considered an MMORPG. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_game While we\\\'re linking Wikipedia articles to each other, I might as well link this]].

Let\\\'s see. Progression? Yep, that happens PSO, PSU, and Zero. Social interaction? Definitely there in all three, PSU the most--and this is one of the things you turned your nose up at, dismissing as a \\\"pseudo-technicality.\\\" Culture? The Phantasy Star games line up fairly well with that. System architecture? That\\\'s pretty much how all the Phantasy Star games work, and the PSO advertisement makes a huge deal about this.

I\\\'m going to say it again--your attempting to remove a few games from this index and label them as something they are not, when they clearly belong on this article as much as many of the other titles which don\\\'t fit your personal definition, is not cool.

So, let\\\'s review what I\\\'m trying to say to you.

* \\\'\\\'\\\'1:\\\'\\\'\\\' The most important thing of all--you\\\'re trying to impose your personal views on the PhantasyStar articles and this index. TV Tropes clearly allows for a number of games that doesn\\\'t fit \\\'\\\'your\\\'\\\' personal definition of what an MMO is, so your repeated attempts to impose your personal definition is not right.
* \\\'\\\'\\\'2:\\\'\\\'\\\' Your personal definition doesn\\\'t even line up with the criteria commonly accepted as qualities of [=MMOs=], even though you\\\'ve repeatedly called your personal definition the \\\"correct\\\" one. You should accept that your personal definition is just that--personal, and not try to present it as the One True Definition.
* \\\'\\\'\\\'3:\\\'\\\'\\\' In my previous reply, I gave you \\\'\\\'my\\\'\\\' personal definition (which I do not claim is that of TV Tropes or the consensus) at your request--but this is separate from points 1 and 2, and I certainly don\\\'t expect you to agree with me on this one.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
--> \'\'\
to:
--> \\\'\\\'\\\"This is a rather hollow accusation, because you\\\'re saying that it\\\'s not what exactly I said, and is specifically something I didn\\\'t.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Then what \\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\' you mean, if you didn\\\'t mean server population? Did you mean that a game can only be considered an MMO if two hundred players can amass in the same place, no matter where? If you meant that, then that would rule out any MMO that uses instanced content, because it would be impossible to amass that many players in the same place.

If you meant that a game can only be called an [=MMO=] if several hundred people can even gather in a place, then you could have to include both \\\'\\\'PSO\\\'\\\' and \\\'\\\'PSU\\\'\\\'. Those example screenshots I postee clearly demonstrate that PSU can handle such large gatherings, and from my time playing PSO, I saw similar gatherings in public lobbies.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"I\\\'m really perplexed as to where, exactly, you managed to [[AssPull pull that one from]], because it\\\'s not related to what I said in the least.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Interesting that you act all proper and polite, feigning shock at perceived hostility, claiming that you\\\'d \\\"like to stay away from personal attacks\\\" while potholing {{Take That}}s in your next reply.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"Being that the only examples of more than four people (six in PhantasyStarUniverse) playing together happen to be in 3D chat lobbies with no real gameplay, I\\\'d say that\\\'s kind of a flimsy pseudo-technicality to try and rely on for your argument, being that these are social constructs to allow players the ability to organize actual gameplay.\\\"\\\'\\\'

So what if you can only party up with four people at once on PSO, and six in PSU? How does this make it different from any other game listed on this article where you can only play with a limited amount of people in certain sections of the game? Even in the \\\"classic\\\" examples of [=MMOs=], the amount of characters that can play together as a party are limited.

Again, you\\\'re going on and on about \\\"pseudo-technicalities\\\" that you deem dismissable, acting as if the Phantasy Star games are some kind of black sheep to this index, when they are not.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"The history page you linked was just a fragment prior to the correction that the games are not actually MMORPGs, that had yet to be cleaned up.\\\"\\\'\\\'

It seems it was a mistake to even mention Wikipedia, because I noticed you immediately went to that article and removed any reference to Phantasy Star Online. Your behavior and repeatedly labeling your personal views \\\"correct\\\" tells me that you\\\'re not only a WikipediaUpdater but an OrwellianEditor to boot; I would point out that some of the articles you linked to do mention that PSO is an MMORPG, but you\\\'re probably going to remove any reference on those as well.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"Wikipedia doesn\\\'t actually classify any of the PhantasyStar games as [=MMOs=] though - you may wish to read [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Online their]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Universe individual]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Zero articles]] and their discussions for some insight.\\\"\\\'\\\'

On the other hand, [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Loathing The Phantasy Star games]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PangYa are not the only]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Arms_%28video_game%29 games not listed]] as [=MMOs=] by Wikipedians on their specific articles, but are listed as [=MMOs=] by TV Tropes. There are [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Fighter_Online certain other]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights games that]] have online mechanics similar to the Phantasy Star games (or are dual single/multiplayer games as well), and yet are billed as [=MMOs=] by the categorization at the end of their articles. I\\\'m not prepared to go try and visit \\\'\\\'every single\\\'\\\' article to see if Wikipedians and tropers agree on what games qualify as MassivelyMultiplayer, but I think I\\\'ve made my point clear enough.

Though seeing what you\\\'ve done already, I\\\'m half-expecting you to go \\\"clean up\\\" those articles as well, just to \\\"prove\\\" yourself \\\"correct.\\\"

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"For the original Sega advertisement for PhantasyStarOnline, it\\\'s worth noting that it doesn\\\'t actually make any mention of the genre-defining features of MMORPGs - it touts its accessibility to the world, online gameplay, and automatically-translated communication features, but it makes no mention of the gameplay actually being \\\"massive\\\" by any means.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Only by your personal definition. As I mentioned, persistence is one of the features commonly viewed as criterion for a game to be considered an MMORPG. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_game While we\\\'re linking Wikipedia articles to each other, I might as well link this]].

Let\\\'s see. Progression? Yep, that happens PSO, PSU, and Zero. Social interaction? Definitely there in all three, PSU the most--and this is one of the things you turned your nose up at, dismissing as a \\\"pseudo-technicality.\\\" Culture? The Phantasy Star games line up fairly well with that. System architecture? That\\\'s pretty much how all the Phantasy Star games work, and the PSO advertisement makes a huge deal about this.

I\\\'m going to say it again--your attempting to remove a few games from this index and label them as something they are not, when they clearly belong on this article as much as many of the other titles which don\\\'t fit your personal definition, is not cool.

So, let\\\'s review what I\\\'m trying to say to you.

* \\\'\\\'\\\'1:\\\'\\\'\\\' The most important thing of all--you\\\'re trying to claim the PhantasyStar games are something they\\\'re not according to this TV Tropes index. TV Tropes clearly allows for a number of games that doesn\\\'t fit \\\'\\\'your\\\'\\\' personal definition of what an MMO is, so your attempting to impose your personal definition is not right.
* \\\'\\\'\\\'2:\\\'\\\'\\\' Your personal definition doesn\\\'t line up with the criteria commonly accepted as qualities of [=MMOs=], even though you call your personal definition the \\\"correct\\\" one. You should accept that your personal definition is just that--personal, and not try to present it as the One True Definition.
* \\\'\\\'\\\'3:\\\'\\\'\\\' In my previous reply, I gave you \\\'\\\'my\\\'\\\' personal definition, which I do not claim as that of TV Tropes or the consensus, at your request. But this is separate from points 1 and 2, and I certainly don\\\'t expect you to agree with me on this one.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
--> \'\'\
to:
--> \\\'\\\'\\\"This is a rather hollow accusation, because you\\\'re saying that it\\\'s not what exactly I said, and is specifically something I didn\\\'t.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Then what \\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\' you mean, if you didn\\\'t mean server population? Did you mean that a game can only be considered an MMO if two hundred players can amass in the same place, no matter where? If you meant that, then that would rule out any MMO that uses instanced content, because it would be impossible to amass that many players in the same place.

If you meant that a game can only be called an [=MMO=] if several hundred people can even gather in a place, then you could have to include both \\\'\\\'PSO\\\'\\\' and \\\'\\\'PSU\\\'\\\'. Those example screenshots I postee clearly demonstrate that PSU can handle such large gatherings, and from my time playing PSO, I saw similar gatherings in public lobbies.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"I\\\'m really perplexed as to where, exactly, you managed to [[AssPull pull that one from]], because it\\\'s not related to what I said in the least.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Interesting that you act all proper and polite, feigning shock at perceived hostility, claiming that you\\\'d \\\"like to stay away from personal attacks\\\" while potholing {{Take That}}s in your next remark.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"Being that the only examples of more than four people (six in PhantasyStarUniverse) playing together happen to be in 3D chat lobbies with no real gameplay, I\\\'d say that\\\'s kind of a flimsy pseudo-technicality to try and rely on for your argument, being that these are social constructs to allow players the ability to organize actual gameplay.\\\"\\\'\\\'

So what if you can only party up with four people at once on PSO, and six in PSU? How does this make it different from any other game listed on this article where you can only play with a limited amount of people in certain sections of the game? Even in the \\\"classic\\\" examples of [=MMOs=], the amount of characters that can play together as a party are limited.

Again, you\\\'re going on and on about \\\"pseudo-technicalities\\\" that you deem dismissable, acting as if the Phantasy Star games are some kind of black sheep to this index, when they are not.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"The history page you linked was just a fragment prior to the correction that the games are not actually MMORPGs, that had yet to be cleaned up.\\\"\\\'\\\'

It seems it was a mistake to even mention Wikipedia, because I noticed you immediately went to that article and removed any reference to Phantasy Star Online. Your behavior and repeatedly labeling your personal views \\\"correct\\\" tells me that you\\\'re not only a WikipediaUpdater but an OrwellianEditor to boot; I would point out that some of the articles you linked to do mention that PSO is an MMORPG, but you\\\'re probably going to remove any reference on those as well.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"Wikipedia doesn\\\'t actually classify any of the PhantasyStar games as [=MMOs=] though - you may wish to read [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Online their]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Universe individual]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Zero articles]] and their discussions for some insight.\\\"\\\'\\\'

On the other hand, [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Loathing The Phantasy Star games]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PangYa are not the only]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Arms_%28video_game%29 games not listed]] as [=MMOs=] by Wikipedians on their specific articles, but are listed as [=MMOs=] by TV Tropes. There are [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Fighter_Online certain other]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights games that]] have online mechanics similar to the Phantasy Star games (or are dual single/multiplayer games as well), and yet are billed as [=MMOs=] by the categorization at the end of their articles. I\\\'m not prepared to go try and visit \\\'\\\'every single\\\'\\\' article to see if Wikipedians and tropers agree on what games qualify as MassivelyMultiplayer, but I think I\\\'ve made my point clear enough.

Though seeing what you\\\'ve done already, I\\\'m half-expecting you to go \\\"clean up\\\" those articles as well, just to \\\"prove\\\" yourself \\\"correct.\\\"

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"For the original Sega advertisement for PhantasyStarOnline, it\\\'s worth noting that it doesn\\\'t actually make any mention of the genre-defining features of MMORPGs - it touts its accessibility to the world, online gameplay, and automatically-translated communication features, but it makes no mention of the gameplay actually being \\\"massive\\\" by any means.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Only by your personal definition. As I mentioned, persistence is one of the features commonly viewed as criterion for a game to be considered an MMORPG. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_game While we\\\'re linking Wikipedia articles to each other, I might as well link this]].

Let\\\'s see. Progression? Yep, that happens PSO, PSU, and Zero. Social interaction? Definitely there in all three, PSU the most--and this is one of the things you turned your nose up at, dismissing as a \\\"pseudo-technicality.\\\" Culture? The Phantasy Star games line up fairly well with that. System architecture? That\\\'s pretty much how all the Phantasy Star games work, and the PSO advertisement makes a huge deal about this.

I\\\'m going to say it again--your attempting to remove a few games from this index and label them as something they are not, when they clearly belong on this article as much as many of the other titles which don\\\'t fit your personal definition, is not cool.

So, let\\\'s review what I\\\'m trying to say to you.

* \\\'\\\'\\\'1:\\\'\\\'\\\' The most important thing of all--you\\\'re trying to claim the PhantasyStar games are something they\\\'re not according to this TV Tropes index. TV Tropes clearly allows for a number of games that doesn\\\'t fit \\\'\\\'your\\\'\\\' personal definition of what an MMO is, so your attempting to impose your personal definition is not right.
* \\\'\\\'\\\'2:\\\'\\\'\\\' Your personal definition doesn\\\'t line up with the criteria commonly accepted as qualities of [=MMOs=], even though you call your personal definition the \\\"correct\\\" one. You should accept that your personal definition is just that--personal, and not try to present it as the One True Definition.
* \\\'\\\'\\\'3:\\\'\\\'\\\' I gave you \\\'\\\'my\\\'\\\' personal definition, which I do not claim as that of TV Tropes or the consensus, at your request. But this is separate from points 1 and 2, and I certainly don\\\'t expect you to agree with me on this one.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
--> \'\'\
to:
--> \\\'\\\'\\\"This is a rather hollow accusation, because you\\\'re saying that it\\\'s not what exactly I said, and is specifically something I didn\\\'t.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Then what \\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\' you mean, if you didn\\\'t mean server population? Did you mean that a game can only be considered an MMO if two hundred players can amass in the same place, no matter where? If you meant that, then that would rule out any MMO that uses instanced content, because it would be impossible to amass that many players in the same place.

If you meant that a game can only be called an [=MMO=] if several hundred people can even gather in a place, then you could have to include both \\\'\\\'PSO\\\'\\\' and \\\'\\\'PSU\\\'\\\'. Those example screenshots I postee clearly demonstrate that PSU can handle such large gatherings, and from my time playing PSO, I saw similar gatherings in public lobbies.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"I\\\'m really perplexed as to where, exactly, you managed to [[AssPull pull that one from]], because it\\\'s not related to what I said in the least.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Interesting that you act all proper and polite, feigning shock at perceived hostility, claiming that you\\\'d \\\"like to stay away from personal attacks\\\" while potholing {{Take That}}s in your next remark.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"Being that the only examples of more than four people (six in PhantasyStarUniverse) playing together happen to be in 3D chat lobbies with no real gameplay, I\\\'d say that\\\'s kind of a flimsy pseudo-technicality to try and rely on for your argument, being that these are social constructs to allow players the ability to organize actual gameplay.\\\"\\\'\\\'

So what if you can only party up with four people at once on PSO, and six in PSU? How does this make it different from any other game listed on this article where you can only play with a limited amount of people in certain sections of the game? Even in the \\\"classic\\\" examples of [=MMOs=], the amount of characters that can play together as a party are limited.

Again, you\\\'re going on and on about \\\"pseudo-technicalities\\\" that you deem dismissable, acting as if the Phantasy Star games are some kind of black sheep to this index, when they are not.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"The history page you linked was just a fragment prior to the correction that the games are not actually MMORPGs, that had yet to be cleaned up.\\\"\\\'\\\'

It seems it was a mistake to even mention Wikipedia, because I noticed you immediately went to that article and removed any reference to Phantasy Star Online. Your behavior and repeatedly labeling your personal views \\\"correct\\\" tells me that you\\\'re not only a WikipediaUpdater but an OrwellianEditor to boot; I would point out that some of the articles you linked to do mention that PSO is an MMORPG, but you\\\'re probably going to remove any reference on those as well.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"Wikipedia doesn\\\'t actually classify any of the PhantasyStar games as [=MMOs=] though - you may wish to read [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Online their]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Universe individual]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Zero articles]] and their discussions for some insight.\\\"\\\'\\\'

On the other hand, [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Loathing The Phantasy Star games]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PangYa are not the only]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Arms_%28video_game%29 games not listed]] as [=MMOs=] by Wikipedians on their specific articles, but are listed as [=MMOs=] by TV Tropes. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Fighter_Online Certain other]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights games that]] have online mechanics similar to the Phantasy Star games (or are dual single/multiplayer games as well), and yet are billed as [=MMOs=] by the categorization at the end of their articles. I\\\'m not prepared to go try and visit \\\'\\\'every single\\\'\\\' article to see if Wikipedians and tropers agree on what games qualify as MassivelyMultiplayer, but I think I\\\'ve made my point clear enough.

Though seeing what you\\\'ve done already, I\\\'m half-expecting you to go \\\"clean up\\\" those articles as well, just to \\\"prove\\\" yourself \\\"correct.\\\"

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"For the original Sega advertisement for PhantasyStarOnline, it\\\'s worth noting that it doesn\\\'t actually make any mention of the genre-defining features of MMORPGs - it touts its accessibility to the world, online gameplay, and automatically-translated communication features, but it makes no mention of the gameplay actually being \\\"massive\\\" by any means.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Only by your personal definition. As I mentioned, persistence is one of the features commonly viewed as criterion for a game to be considered an MMORPG. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_game While we\\\'re linking Wikipedia articles to each other, I might as well link this]].

Let\\\'s see. Progression? Yep, that happens PSO, PSU, and Zero. Social interaction? Definitely there in all three, PSU the most--and this is one of the things you turned your nose up at, dismissing as a \\\"pseudo-technicality.\\\" Culture? The Phantasy Star games line up fairly well with that. System architecture? That\\\'s pretty much how all the Phantasy Star games work, and the PSO advertisement makes a huge deal about this.

I\\\'m going to say it again--your attempting to remove a few games from this index and label them as something they are not, when they clearly belong on this article as much as many of the other titles which don\\\'t fit your personal definition, is not cool.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
--> \'\'\
to:
--> \\\'\\\'\\\"This is a rather hollow accusation, because you\\\'re saying that it\\\'s not what exactly I said, and is specifically something I didn\\\'t.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Then what \\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\' you mean, if you didn\\\'t mean server population? Did you mean that a game can only be considered an MMO if two hundred players can amass in the same place, no matter where? If you meant that, then that would rule out any MMO that uses instanced content, because it would be impossible to amass that many players in the same place.

If you meant that a game can only be called an [=MMO=] if several hundred people can even gather in a place, then you could have to include both \\\'\\\'PSO\\\'\\\' and \\\'\\\'PSU\\\'\\\'. Those example screenshots I postee clearly demonstrate that PSU can handle such large gatherings, and from my time playing PSO, I saw similar gatherings in public lobbies.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"I\\\'m really perplexed as to where, exactly, you managed to [[AssPull pull that one from]], because it\\\'s not related to what I said in the least.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Interesting that you act all proper and polite, feigning shock at perceived hostility, claiming that you\\\'d \\\"like to stay away from personal attacks\\\" while potholing {{Take That}}s in your next remark.

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"Being that the only examples of more than four people (six in PhantasyStarUniverse) playing together happen to be in 3D chat lobbies with no real gameplay, I\\\'d say that\\\'s kind of a flimsy pseudo-technicality to try and rely on for your argument, being that these are social constructs to allow players the ability to organize actual gameplay.\\\"\\\'\\\'

So what if you can only party up with four people at once on PSO, and six in PSU? How does this make it different from any other game listed on this article where you can only play with a limited amount of people in certain sections of the game? Even in the \\\"classic\\\" examples of [=MMOs=], the amount of characters that can play together as a party are limited.

Again, you\\\'re going on and on about \\\"pseudo-technicalities\\\" that you deem dismissable, acting as if the Phantasy Star games are some kind of black sheep to this index, when they are not.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"The history page you linked was just a fragment prior to the correction that the games are not actually MMORPGs, that had yet to be cleaned up.\\\"\\\'\\\'

It seems it was a mistake to even mention Wikipedia, because I noticed you immediately went to that article and removed any reference to Phantasy Star Online. Your behavior and repeatedly labeling your personal views \\\"correct\\\" tells me that you\\\'re not only a WikipediaUpdater but an OrwellianEditor to boot; I would point out that some of the articles you linked to do mention that PSO is an MMORPG, but you\\\'re probably going to remove any reference on those as well.

-->\\\'\\\'\\\"Wikipedia doesn\\\'t actually classify any of the PhantasyStar games as [=MMOs=] though - you may wish to read [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Online their]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Universe individual]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Zero articles]] and their discussions for some insight.\\\"\\\'\\\'

On the other hand, [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Loathing The Phantasy Star games]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PangYa are not the only]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Arms_%28video_game%29 games not listed]] as [=MMOs=] by Wikipedians on their specific articles, but are listed as [=MMOs=] by TV Tropes. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Fighter_Online Certain other]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights games that]] have online mechanics similar to the Phantasy Star games, and yet are billed as [=MMOs=] by the categorization at the end of their articles. I\\\'m not prepared to go try and visit \\\'\\\'every single\\\'\\\' article to see if Wikipedians and tropers agree on what games qualify as MassivelyMultiplayer, but I think I\\\'ve made my point clear enough.

Though seeing what you\\\'ve done already, I\\\'m half-expecting you to go \\\"clean up\\\" those articles as well, just to \\\"prove\\\" yourself \\\"correct.\\\"

--> \\\'\\\'\\\"For the original Sega advertisement for PhantasyStarOnline, it\\\'s worth noting that it doesn\\\'t actually make any mention of the genre-defining features of MMORPGs - it touts its accessibility to the world, online gameplay, and automatically-translated communication features, but it makes no mention of the gameplay actually being \\\"massive\\\" by any means.\\\"\\\'\\\'

Only by your personal definition. As I mentioned, persistence is one of the features commonly viewed as criterion for a game to be considered an MMORPG. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_game While we\\\'re linking Wikipedia articles to each other, I might as well link this]].

Let\\\'s see. Progression? Yep, that happens PSO, PSU, and Zero. Social interaction? Definitely there in all three, PSU the most--and this is one of the things you turned your nose up at, dismissing as a \\\"pseudo-technicality.\\\" Culture? The Phantasy Star games line up fairly well with that. System architecture? That\\\'s pretty much how all the Phantasy Star games work, and the PSO advertisement makes a huge deal about this.

I\\\'m going to say it again--your attempting to remove a few games from this index and label them as something they are not, when they clearly belong on this article as much as many of the other titles which don\\\'t fit your personal definition, is not cool.
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