Remark History - TV Tropes

[003] Jaabi

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* This is exclusively for light sources that are meant to be handheld but for some very unusual or just plain unexplained reason simply aren\'t, like in the page image.

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* This is exclusively for light sources that are meant to be handheld but for some very unusual or just plain unexplained reason simply aren\\\\\\\'t, like in the page image.

[002] Jaabi

16th Oct '18 at 05:12:27 AM

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* This is exclusively for light sources that are meant to be handheld but for some very unusual or just plain unexplained reason simply aren\\\'t, like in the page image.

There are numerous examples on this page that \\\'\\\'are\\\'\\\' explained, or are aversions by being held items. Additionally, the \\\'\\\'page image itself\\\'\\\' gets explained in its own webcomics entry, even if it visually demonstrates the phenomenon.

I\\\'m not sure if this means this trope needs a clean up, or a clarification for when an aversion/subversion counts as this trope.

[001] OmegaNemesis13

15th Jan '18 at 04:34:52 AM

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Why did Luke decide killing Kylo Ren was the best thing to do? Even if it was for a moment? This isn't the same situation as Darth Vader where Luke gave into fear by knowing that Vader was perfectly capable of horrible things combined with fear for his sisters safety. In this movie, we don't actually see Ben Solo do anything but sleep in his room while his uncle creepily watches over him contemplating murder. If we had seen in flashback what Ben Solo was doing to make Luke worried, that'd make all of the difference, but he doesn't. Ben Solo is presented as an innocent victim but that doesn't work in this context because the movie is trying to also make it clear that Ben Solo is also on the verge of the Dark Side without giving us visual examples of it. Just saying Snoke did it doesn't work because we already know that bit, but what we need for this to work is to show ''what'' Ben did to make his uncle so worried.

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Why did Luke decide killing Kylo Ren was the best thing to do? Even if it was for a moment? This isn\'t the same situation as Darth Vader where Luke gave into fear by knowing that Vader was perfectly capable of horrible things combined with fear for his sisters safety. In this movie, we don\'t actually see Ben Solo do anything but sleep in his room while his uncle creepily watches over him contemplating murder. If we had seen in flashback what Ben Solo was doing to make Luke worried, that\'d make all of the difference, but he doesn\'t. Ben Solo is presented as an innocent victim but that doesn\'t work in this context because the movie is trying to also make it clear that Ben Solo is also on the verge of the Dark Side without giving us visual examples of it. Just saying Snoke did it doesn\'t work because we already know that bit, but what we need for this to work is to show \'\'what\'\' Ben did to make his uncle so worried. And even currently, while the movie makes it clear that Kylo Ren could be redeemed if Luke and Rey were to simply work together for it, Luke refuses to do it because Luke thinks Kylo Ren is irredeemable and he says so to Leia. Again, there is nothing to suggest that Kylo Ren is worse than Darth Vader in this regard. Luke not giving Kylo Ren that same chance thus goes complete against Luke\'s philosophy as established in RotJ that anyone can be redeemed simply because the film wants Luke to feel that way. That\'s not organic character growth, it\'s artificial.

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It's also not the same thing because Luke would still never consider murdering someone while they sleep, which this movie suggests he would. And don't pretend that because he doesn't that it makes it better, please. Because the fact is is that it is CharacterDerailment. The behavior doesn't match up with Luke's character arc in the original trilogy or the Legends novels, which were still official canon before the reboot. The problem comes because it's trying to do things with Luke that don't fit his core values, so it has to dramatically change them to suit the films needs. Again, that's bad writing, look at it without the rose colored glasses and you'll see that. Luke Skywalker doesn't give up, he just finds another way to do something. That's why Yoda gains complete confidence in Luke before he dies to pass on what he learned. And we saw him do just that in Legends and while Lucas always had the option to ignore it, it was still recognized by Lucasfilm as canon according to their Canon Tier system. The movie is ignoring those traits and throwing out development that he previously had in order to put him in a place that is antithetical to his character development. That perfectly fits the definition of CharacterDerailment.

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It\'s also not the same thing because Luke would still never consider murdering someone while they sleep, which this movie suggests he would. And don\'t pretend that because he doesn\'t that it makes it better, please. Because the fact is is that it is CharacterDerailment. The behavior doesn\'t match up with Luke\'s character arc in the original trilogy or the Legends novels, which were still official canon before the reboot. The problem comes because it\'s trying to do things with Luke that don\'t fit his core values, so it has to dramatically change them to suit the films needs. Again, that\'s bad writing, look at it without the rose colored glasses and you\'ll see that. Luke Skywalker doesn\'t give up, he just finds another way to do something. That\'s why Yoda gains complete confidence in Luke before he dies to pass on what he learned. And we saw him do just that in Legends and while Lucas always had the option to ignore it, it was still recognized by Lucasfilm as canon according to their Canon Tier system. The movie is ignoring those traits and throwing out development that he previously had in order to put him in a place that is antithetical to his character development. That perfectly fits the definition of CharacterDerailment.

Discussion History YMMV / TheLastJedi