[002]
vorpalgirl
Current Version
Changed line(s) 3 from:
n
In fact, I feel like an addition could easily be made to the DQ entry for what it's a Trope Maker ''for'', because I'd also credit it as either the Trope Maker or something very close/connected to it, of the genre that came to be called FanFiction. See, before Don Quixote, there were, yes, plenty of oral storytelling and folklore things going on with [[SharedUniverse characters being expanded on by various people over time]], and scholars like Henry Jenkins like to credit these folk tales as the OlderThanDirt prototypes/precursors/perhaps UrExamples for the genre that is now fanfic, since those things came about pre-copyright laws and nobody cared and the practice of
to:
In fact, I feel like an addition could easily be made to the DQ entry for what it\'s a Trope Maker \'\'for\'\', because I\'d also credit it as either the Trope Maker or something very close/connected to it, of the genre that came to be called FanFiction. See, before Don Quixote, there were, yes, plenty of oral storytelling and folklore things going on with [[SharedUniverse characters being expanded on by various people over time]], and scholars like Henry Jenkins like to credit these folk tales as the OlderThanDirt prototypes/precursors/perhaps UrExamples for the genre that is now fanfic, since those things came about pre-copyright laws and nobody cared and the practice of \"using existing characters\" was therefore common.
But what happened \'\'after\'\' Don Quixote included not just \"somebody doing something with these folk heroes that everybody uses\", but literally taking a copyrighted work known to be from a specific, then-contemporary person, and making an unauthorized derivative work of fiction based on that very specific work by that very specific person (i.e. {{Canon}}). The [[FollowTheLeader unauthorized sequels that others wrote]] for \'\'Don Quixote\'\' were even the subject of Cervantes\' ire, causing him to write a real and official sequel (again: an official {{Canon}}!) out of spite when he had originally decided not to, just to [[WordOfGod contradict the things]] these unauthorized works repeatedly \"got wrong\"! I believe (I\'ll have to check) that he even tried to sue the writers of them, kicking off an on-again, off-again trend of creators trying to sue fan fiction writers for copyright infringement (well before the term was ever coined much less used for what we now use it for). So woo! We have a fun little bit of history that connects DQ in a Trope Maker way to an entire modern genre of fiction and therefore countless subgenres as well! I will probably add something like this after I\'ve discerned what aspects it\'s the Trope Maker of (I\'m guessing, the establishment of a \"canon\" work and the differentiation between \"modern works that are legally thorny to create derivatives of\" vs the Public Domain material any could use - I\'ll see about doing a pithier version of that description, heh).
I also agree DQ can indeed be called the first \"modern\" novel...however, you might be wondering why I kicked this comment off with \"I will not deny that...\", yes? That is because while Cervantes may have \'\'modernized\'\' the novel, the acknowledged \"first novel\" in \'\'format\'\' - and influential as heck in Asia, no less - was \'\'Genji Monogatari\'\' (\"The Tale of Genji\") which is from Japan and predates DQ quite a bit if I\'m not mistaken.
I was debating whether to edit the bit on DQ with saying that the actual \"novel\" format\'s UrExample was \'\'Genji\'\' but - in actual fact \'\'Genji\'\' was so popular it basically single-handedly established the novel as a valid fiction format? And since it\'s the earliest known such example, that goes beyond Trope Codifier into \"Trope Maker\" (and simultaneous UrExample? Hm. Not clear if there\'s always a difference, or if Ur Examples can be Trope Makers too, just like how a Trope Maker is sometimes though not exclusively a Trope Codifier from the sounds of it?).
Anyway. This all means that while I would argue for retaining Don Quixote as the Trope Maker for \"modern\" styles of novels (and all the tropes that it originated), I would also like to propose \'\'Genji Monogatari\'\' as the Trope Maker for the novel itself in general. You know, because Don Quixote is the modernization of the format, but Genji is the one that established it? I don\'t think this should be controversial but I wanted to make a note of this well before editing because I know the Index itself notes that it\'s easy for an entry to become controversial but I feel that if well-written, that addition won\'t be if people know the background of why?
That and I wanted to get these thoughts out and organized a little so that I can be short-and-sweet by the time I add it, if someone else doesn\'t get to it first.
But what happened \'\'after\'\' Don Quixote included not just \"somebody doing something with these folk heroes that everybody uses\", but literally taking a copyrighted work known to be from a specific, then-contemporary person, and making an unauthorized derivative work of fiction based on that very specific work by that very specific person (i.e. {{Canon}}). The [[FollowTheLeader unauthorized sequels that others wrote]] for \'\'Don Quixote\'\' were even the subject of Cervantes\' ire, causing him to write a real and official sequel (again: an official {{Canon}}!) out of spite when he had originally decided not to, just to [[WordOfGod contradict the things]] these unauthorized works repeatedly \"got wrong\"! I believe (I\'ll have to check) that he even tried to sue the writers of them, kicking off an on-again, off-again trend of creators trying to sue fan fiction writers for copyright infringement (well before the term was ever coined much less used for what we now use it for). So woo! We have a fun little bit of history that connects DQ in a Trope Maker way to an entire modern genre of fiction and therefore countless subgenres as well! I will probably add something like this after I\'ve discerned what aspects it\'s the Trope Maker of (I\'m guessing, the establishment of a \"canon\" work and the differentiation between \"modern works that are legally thorny to create derivatives of\" vs the Public Domain material any could use - I\'ll see about doing a pithier version of that description, heh).
I also agree DQ can indeed be called the first \"modern\" novel...however, you might be wondering why I kicked this comment off with \"I will not deny that...\", yes? That is because while Cervantes may have \'\'modernized\'\' the novel, the acknowledged \"first novel\" in \'\'format\'\' - and influential as heck in Asia, no less - was \'\'Genji Monogatari\'\' (\"The Tale of Genji\") which is from Japan and predates DQ quite a bit if I\'m not mistaken.
I was debating whether to edit the bit on DQ with saying that the actual \"novel\" format\'s UrExample was \'\'Genji\'\' but - in actual fact \'\'Genji\'\' was so popular it basically single-handedly established the novel as a valid fiction format? And since it\'s the earliest known such example, that goes beyond Trope Codifier into \"Trope Maker\" (and simultaneous UrExample? Hm. Not clear if there\'s always a difference, or if Ur Examples can be Trope Makers too, just like how a Trope Maker is sometimes though not exclusively a Trope Codifier from the sounds of it?).
Anyway. This all means that while I would argue for retaining Don Quixote as the Trope Maker for \"modern\" styles of novels (and all the tropes that it originated), I would also like to propose \'\'Genji Monogatari\'\' as the Trope Maker for the novel itself in general. You know, because Don Quixote is the modernization of the format, but Genji is the one that established it? I don\'t think this should be controversial but I wanted to make a note of this well before editing because I know the Index itself notes that it\'s easy for an entry to become controversial but I feel that if well-written, that addition won\'t be if people know the background of why?
That and I wanted to get these thoughts out and organized a little so that I can be short-and-sweet by the time I add it, if someone else doesn\'t get to it first.
Changed line(s) 3 from:
n
In fact, I feel like an addition could easily be made to the DQ entry for what it's a Trope Maker ''for'', because I'd also credit it as either the Trope Maker or something very close/connected to it, of the genre that came to be called FanFiction. See, before Don Quixote, there were, yes, plenty of oral storytelling and folklore things going on with [[SharedUniverse characters being expanded on by various people over time]], and scholars like Henry Jenkins like to credit these folk tales as the OlderThanDirt prototypes/precursors/perhaps UrExamples for the genre that is now fanfic, since those things came about pre-copyright laws and nobody cared and the practice of
to:
In fact, I feel like an addition could easily be made to the DQ entry for what it\'s a Trope Maker \'\'for\'\', because I\'d also credit it as either the Trope Maker or something very close/connected to it, of the genre that came to be called FanFiction. See, before Don Quixote, there were, yes, plenty of oral storytelling and folklore things going on with [[SharedUniverse characters being expanded on by various people over time]], and scholars like Henry Jenkins like to credit these folk tales as the OlderThanDirt prototypes/precursors/perhaps UrExamples for the genre that is now fanfic, since those things came about pre-copyright laws and nobody cared and the practice of \"using existing characters\" was therefore common.
But what happened \'\'after\'\' Don Quixote included not just \"somebody doing something with these folk heroes that everybody uses\", but literally taking a copyrighted work known to be from a specific, then-contemporary person, and making an unauthorized derivative work of fiction based on that very specific work by that very specific person (i.e. {{Canon}}. The [[FollowTheLeader unauthorized sequels that others wrote]] for \'\'Don Quixote\'\' were even the subject of Cervantes\' ire, causing him to write a real and official sequel (again: an official {{Canon}}!) out of spite when he had originally decided not to, just to [[WordOfGod contradict the things]] these unauthorized works repeatedly \"got wrong\"! I believe (I\'ll have to check) that he even tried to sue the writers of them, kicking off an on-again, off-again trend of creators trying to sue fan fiction writers for copyright infringement. So woo! We have a fun little bit of history that connects DQ in a Trope Maker way to an entire modern genre of fiction and therefore countless subgenres as well! I will probably add something like this after I\'ve discerned what aspects it\'s the Trope Maker of (I\'m guessing, the establishment of a \"canon\" work and the differentiation between \"modern works that are legally thorny to create derivatives of\" vs the Public Domain material any could use - I\'ll see about doing a pithier version of that description, heh).
I also agree DQ can indeed be called the first \"modern\" novel...however, you might be wondering why I kicked this comment off with \"I will not deny that...\", yes? That is because while Cervantes may have \'\'modernized\'\' the novel, the acknowledged \"first novel\" in \'\'format\'\' - and influential as heck in Asia, no less - was \'\'Genji Monogatari\'\' (\"The Tale of Genji\") which is from Japan and predates DQ quite a bit if I\'m not mistaken.
I was debating whether to edit the bit on DQ with saying that the actual \"novel\" format\'s UrExample was \'\'Genji\'\' but - in actual fact \'\'Genji\'\' was so popular it basically single-handedly established the novel as a valid fiction format? And since it\'s the earliest known such example, that goes beyond Trope Codifier into \"Trope Maker\" (and simultaneous UrExample? Hm. Not clear if there\'s always a difference, or if Ur Examples can be Trope Makers too, just like how a Trope Maker is sometimes though not exclusively a Trope Codifier from the sounds of it?).
Anyway. This all means that while I would argue for retaining Don Quixote as the Trope Maker for \"modern\" styles of novels (and all the tropes that it originated), I would also like to propose \'\'Genji Monogatari\'\' as the Trope Maker for the novel itself in general. You know, because Don Quixote is the modernization of the format, but Genji is the one that established it? I don\'t think this should be controversial but I wanted to make a note of this well before editing because I know the Index itself notes that it\'s easy for an entry to become controversial but I feel that if well-written, that addition won\'t be if people know the background of why?
That and I wanted to get these thoughts out and organized a little so that I can be short-and-sweet by the time I add it, if someone else doesn\'t get to it first.
But what happened \'\'after\'\' Don Quixote included not just \"somebody doing something with these folk heroes that everybody uses\", but literally taking a copyrighted work known to be from a specific, then-contemporary person, and making an unauthorized derivative work of fiction based on that very specific work by that very specific person (i.e. {{Canon}}. The [[FollowTheLeader unauthorized sequels that others wrote]] for \'\'Don Quixote\'\' were even the subject of Cervantes\' ire, causing him to write a real and official sequel (again: an official {{Canon}}!) out of spite when he had originally decided not to, just to [[WordOfGod contradict the things]] these unauthorized works repeatedly \"got wrong\"! I believe (I\'ll have to check) that he even tried to sue the writers of them, kicking off an on-again, off-again trend of creators trying to sue fan fiction writers for copyright infringement. So woo! We have a fun little bit of history that connects DQ in a Trope Maker way to an entire modern genre of fiction and therefore countless subgenres as well! I will probably add something like this after I\'ve discerned what aspects it\'s the Trope Maker of (I\'m guessing, the establishment of a \"canon\" work and the differentiation between \"modern works that are legally thorny to create derivatives of\" vs the Public Domain material any could use - I\'ll see about doing a pithier version of that description, heh).
I also agree DQ can indeed be called the first \"modern\" novel...however, you might be wondering why I kicked this comment off with \"I will not deny that...\", yes? That is because while Cervantes may have \'\'modernized\'\' the novel, the acknowledged \"first novel\" in \'\'format\'\' - and influential as heck in Asia, no less - was \'\'Genji Monogatari\'\' (\"The Tale of Genji\") which is from Japan and predates DQ quite a bit if I\'m not mistaken.
I was debating whether to edit the bit on DQ with saying that the actual \"novel\" format\'s UrExample was \'\'Genji\'\' but - in actual fact \'\'Genji\'\' was so popular it basically single-handedly established the novel as a valid fiction format? And since it\'s the earliest known such example, that goes beyond Trope Codifier into \"Trope Maker\" (and simultaneous UrExample? Hm. Not clear if there\'s always a difference, or if Ur Examples can be Trope Makers too, just like how a Trope Maker is sometimes though not exclusively a Trope Codifier from the sounds of it?).
Anyway. This all means that while I would argue for retaining Don Quixote as the Trope Maker for \"modern\" styles of novels (and all the tropes that it originated), I would also like to propose \'\'Genji Monogatari\'\' as the Trope Maker for the novel itself in general. You know, because Don Quixote is the modernization of the format, but Genji is the one that established it? I don\'t think this should be controversial but I wanted to make a note of this well before editing because I know the Index itself notes that it\'s easy for an entry to become controversial but I feel that if well-written, that addition won\'t be if people know the background of why?
That and I wanted to get these thoughts out and organized a little so that I can be short-and-sweet by the time I add it, if someone else doesn\'t get to it first.
